Americans-Canadians

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

We're going to need more D-I teams pretty soon I think...lest bonafide division I talent from both sides of the border be left out in the cold.

I think in the recent past...or perhaps up 'til this point in NCAA women's hockey, most, probably all legit D-I talent from Minnesota found spots on D-I rosters. That pool is growing...I wouldn't say gangbusters...but it's pretty steady growth, to the point that at least a few do have difficulty getting picked up by a D-I program now. I think a saturation leading to an increase of players with that problem is a real possibility. In Canada, maybe there's loads of players in that boat. That I wouldn't know.

Edit: It does seem to me when you look at totals gathered by Hux in the commitment thread, then the numbers of women playing in each country...there would have to be a pretty large number of Canadians not playing NCAA D-I, that could be.

I would say IMHO, even with the dramatic growth of players from Ontario picked up by D1 clubs in the last couple of years, that there are still a relatively small number players from Ontario left who are better than many other US girls in D1. There are also a much larger number of girls from their Provincial Teams outside Ontario who don't get picked up that could easily play D1 also. Whether that doesn't happen due to marks, lack of interest in moving to the US for school, or lack of opportunity to do so, I really couldn't say.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Wow, slamdunk Lucky. SlewFoot?

I think the interesting thing is that over the last few years the Duluth coach has been recruiting more Minnesota girls. I saw an article a few years ago and the Duluth coach said that she felt that in order to compete she had to look to Europe because she couldn't get the quality Minnesota girls that were being recruited by the U of MN and others. I think the pool of quality players has increased and now she is recruiting more Americans and Minnesotans in particular.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I think it perpetuates the stereo-type but I don't think its enough evidence. I know that for many years the U of Minnesota won many national titles with primarily Minnesota girls.

I saw your first post a few minutes ago before you took it down. Kind of funny don't you think? .... I don't think anyone can question the quality that comes from Minnesota and the rest of the US for that matter. Hopefully OnMAA will get back to us with the stats or maybe you can come with something of fact to back it up. Hockey in Canada and the US is very close in parity on both the women's and men's side, but something must be swaying in our favour if in fact it is true. What is it?..... Great for hockey.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I saw your first post a few minutes ago before you took it down. Kind of funny don't you think? .... I don't think anyone can question the quality that comes from Minnesota and the rest of the US for that matter. Hopefully OnMAA will get back to us with the stats or maybe you can come with something of fact to back it up. Hockey in Canada and the US is very close in parity on both the women's and men's side, but something must be swaying in our favour if in fact it is true. What is it?..... Great for hockey.

I took down my original post because it was early in the morning and I misread the post by Lucky (I got up at 5:30 AM to take my daughter to her year long, weekly 1 hour stickhandling clinic).

I agree that there is quality in the US and Canada. I know that we in Minnesota respect the abilities of the Canadian players. I think we see more Canadian players than players from other parts of the US. I don't know what's going on in the rest of the US but in Minnesota the talent pool and the overall skill is increasing dramatically. Obviously, I haven't seen all of the girls from Canada but the many times we played Canadians I think the overall talent of the teams were comparable. Based on my limited exposure, I wonder if US coaches are chasing the (IMO) stereotype that Canadian girls are better hockey players or is it reality that Canadian girls are better to explain the disproporationate numbers of Canadian girls in US D1 schools.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I took down my original post because it was early in the morning and I misread the post by Lucky (I got up at 5:30 AM to take my daughter to her year long, weekly 1 hour stickhandling clinic). I agree that there is quality in the US and Canada. I know that we in Minnesota respect the abilities of the Canadian players. I think we see more Canadian players than players from other parts of the US so I don't know what's going on in the rest of the US but in Minnesota the talent pool and the overall skill is increasing dramatically. Obviously, I haven't seen all of the girls from Canada but the many times we played Canadians I think the overall talent of the teams were comparable. Based on my limited exposure, I wonder if US coaches are chasing the (IMO) stereotype that Canadian girls are better hockey players or is it reality that Canadian girls are better to explain the disproporationate numbers of Canadian girls in US D1 schools.

Why do you choose to use the word stereotype? Doesn't sound right to me. Hasn't it been earned?

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My only knowledge of the PWHL is from what I've read online here, but having read comments by many posters, I get the sense that this may be the most competitive women's hockeh league in North America short of the NCAA itself. For the sake of comparison, I include any leagues that any US club teams might participate in, as well as the New England Prep League.

There may be debate as to whether this is true, but let's say that it is...a concentration of top players competing against each other with great regularlity simply has to be a formula for developing even stronger players. Perhaps this is part of what makes participants from this league among the most sought after?

I know the following to be true for Assabet Valley, though it's probably true for many teams such as the Colorado Selects, Chicago Mission, etc: That their regular weekly schedule of games does not bring the same level of challenge brought by regional or national tournaments, and that many games along the way result in blowouts bearing little competition for development.

Does this hold water? Or am I just bloated?

 

[LG4]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I took down my original post because it was early in the morning and I misread the post by Lucky (I got up at 5:30 AM to take my daughter to her year long, weekly 1 hour stickhandling clinic).

I agree that there is quality in the US and Canada. I know that we in Minnesota respect the abilities of the Canadian players. I think we see more Canadian players than players from other parts of the US. I don't know what's going on in the rest of the US but in Minnesota the talent pool and the overall skill is increasing dramatically. Obviously, I haven't seen all of the girls from Canada but the many times we played Canadians I think the overall talent of the teams were comparable. Based on my limited exposure, I wonder if US coaches are chasing the (IMO) stereotype that Canadian girls are better hockey players or is it reality that Canadian girls are better to explain the disproporationate numbers of Canadian girls in US D1 schools.

I"m thinking in Minnesota you are playing Manitoba based teams -- I can think of at least 3 D1 type players who aren't even playing there during the year. Unless you have seen some of the top PWHL teams you can't safely gauge the parity of play. I will add I haven't seen any Minnesota teams play so I could be off base here too. Maybe someone can enlighten me and I won't take it personally so no need to make it an attack

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Or am I just bloated?

Too easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Why do you choose to use the word stereotype? Doesn't sound right to me. Hasn't it been earned?

My use of the word stereotype is the same as Webster's. Its a simplified and standardized conception of a group. There is nothing that implies it is a correct or incorrect conception. That's my question. Is is a correct or outdated conception or is it too general of a stereotype? As far as is it earned. Of course it is. US girls hockey is in its infancy. In Minnesota, it wasn't sanctioned as a High School sport until I think 1991. The Canadian girls had a huge head start since hockey is Canada's sport.

 

[Hux]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I"m thinking in Minnesota you are playing Manitoba based teams -- I can think of at least 3 D1 type players who aren't even playing there during the year. Unless you have seen some of the top PWHL teams you can't safely gauge the parity of play. I will add I haven't seen any Minnesota teams play so I could be off base here too. Maybe someone can enlighten me and I won't take it personally so no need to make it an attack

While it certainly comes into play, I don't think "level of competition" is the primary factor in recruiting. Aside from talent, coaches I've talked to are more concerned with finding players who can work within a team structure, who understand the game and can be stars, or role players, depending on the needs of the team.

The top teams (NAHA, Assabet, Nobles, Mission, LC, Aeros, Stoney Creek, NCCP/Ottawa etc etc) place a lot of players in D1 because they have a lot of D1 players on the roster. It isn't a situation of one or two players carrying the load, making the end to end rushes etc. As a consequence of having that wealth of talent, more across the board development takes place.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I"m thinking in Minnesota you are playing Manitoba based teams -- I can think of at least 3 D1 type players who aren't even playing there during the year. Unless you have seen some of the top PWHL teams you can't safely gauge the parity of play. I will add I haven't seen any Minnesota teams play so I could be off base here too. Maybe someone can enlighten me and I won't take it personally so no need to make it an attack

In general our youth players are playing Manitoba girls, but there are exceptions. Our Minnesota Thoroughbreds and the women's "professional" Whitecap teams are playing other provinces and I have seen these games as well. Shattuck is another Minnesota organization that plays nationally but I don't consider them a home-grown team. And there are summer teams that play outside of Minnesota occasionally (e.g. Jr. Whitecaps and Icecats).

As far as Minnesota, we are generally protected by an iron curtain when it comes to hockey. The game is very popular here and some would argue that it is only second in popularity to the Vikings and American football. Because of the popularity, the hockey system is designed to be community based. Almost every town, suburb or village has their own team. Minnesota Hockey and the Minnesota State High School League do a lot to protect this community-based hockey system so we don't get many opportunities to play outside the State. In my humble opinion, this system has its good and bad points. The predominant good points are that it keeps hockey affordable and popular and keeps the numbers up. The bad is that we don't create elite teams to compete nationally and maybe that holds our girls back a little.

The only exceptions to the community based system for youth are the Thoroughbreds, Shattuck and the Minnesota Crunch and the occasional AAA team (essentially a bunch of good players that get together to play tournaments during the summer).

Shattuck is made up of players from all over the US and Canada. There are quite a few from Minnesota but it is too broad based to be considered a local team.

The Minnesota Crunch is a great organization that primarily caters to girls who have graduated high school and want to continue to play and maybe catch on to a college team that previously didn't notice them.

The Thoroughbreds is a great alternative to High School hockey. There are some very good players on the Thoroughbreds but I don't think anyone would argue that they are the ultimate all-star team of Minnesota girls.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

In general our youth players are playing Manitoba girls, but there are exceptions. Our Minnesota Thoroughbreds and the women's "professional" Whitecap teams are playing other provinces and I have seen these games as well. Shattuck is another Minnesota organization that plays nationally but I don't consider them a home-grown team. And there are summer teams that play outside of Minnesota occasionally (e.g. Jr. Whitecaps and Icecats).

As far as Minnesota, we are generally protected by an iron curtain when it comes to hockey. The game is very popular here and some would argue that it is only second in popularity to the Vikings and American football. Because of the popularity, the hockey system is designed to be community based. Almost every town, suburb or village has their own team. Minnesota Hockey and the Minnesota State High School League do a lot to protect this community-based hockey system so we don't get many opportunities to play outside the State. The only exceptions for youth are the Thoroughbreds, Shattuck and the Minnesota Crunch and the occasional AAA team (essentially a bunch of good players that get together to play tournaments during the summer).

Shattuck is made up of players from all over the US and Canada. There are quite a few from Minnesota but it is too broad based to be considered a local team.

The Minnesota Crunch is a great organization that primarily caters to girls who have graduated high school and want to continue to play and maybe catch on to a college team that previously didn't notice them.

The Thoroughbreds is a great alternative to High School hockey. There are some very good players on the Thoroughbreds but I don't think anyone would argue that they are the ultimate all-star team of Minnesota girls.

I don't think we had too much of a head start on the girls side. I've seen it take off, believe it or not, for only about the last 10-15 years. Do you think that your high school teams compare to say, teams in the PWHL? Because it sounds like the other teams you describe are in a different category. We'll start there.
PS.. I'll let it go this time, the "stereotype" comment.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

While it certainly comes into play, I don't think "level of competition" is the primary factor in recruiting. Aside from talent, coaches I've talked to are more concerned with finding players who can work within a team structure, who understand the game and can be stars, or role players, depending on the needs of the team.

The top teams (NAHA, Assabet, Nobles, Mission, LC, Aeros, Stoney Creek, NCCP/Ottawa etc etc) place a lot of players in D1 because they have a lot of D1 players on the roster. It isn't a situation of one or two players carrying the load, making the end to end rushes etc. As a consequence of having that wealth of talent, more across the board development takes place.

Nice input.

 

[Hux]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I don't think we had too much of a head start on the girls side. I've seen it take off, believe it or not, for only about the last 10-15 years. Do you think that your high school teams compare to say, teams in the PWHL? Because it sounds like the other teams you describe are in a different category. We'll start there.
PS.. I'll let it go this time, the "stereotype" comment.

As was noted, the Minny system is based on home grown, community teams. Playing for a "club" team is akin to defecting from your country. (though until recently it was quite acceptable to uproot and transfer to a more "competitive" high school) The average high school team is composed of two very good players who carry the load. In some instances there are teams with three or four top level players. A Minny high school team would get eaten alive by a most PW, JW, NEGHL, or Tier 1/MWE teams.

The T-breds aren't meant to be an "All-Star" team. Their existence over the past 15 years has been as an alternative to high school hockey for players who come from areas with weak, or non-existent programs.( or when someone finds themselves the third goalie on a team with two other goalies who end up going D1. )

However, their off-season training and skill development programs blow away anything found anywhere else. Combine that with several traveling All-Star teams during the summer, and an all-star league in the fall and you have outstanding individual development that places many Minny girls ahead of the pack.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

As was noted, the Minny system is based on home grown, community teams. Playing for a "club" team is akin to defecting from your country. (though until recently it was quite acceptable to uproot and transfer to a more "competitive" high school) The average high school team is composed of two very good players who carry the load. In some instances there are teams with three or four top level players. A Minny high school team would get eaten alive by a most PW, JW, NEGHL, or Tier 1/MWE teams.

The T-breds aren't meant to be an "All-Star" team. Their existence over the past 15 years has been as an alternative to high school hockey for players who come from areas with weak, or non-existent programs.( or when someone finds themselves the third goalie on a team with two other goalies who end up going D1. )

However, their off-season training and skill development programs blow away anything found anywhere else. Combine that with several traveling All-Star teams during the summer, and an all-star league in the fall and you have outstanding individual development that places many Minny girls ahead of the pack.

Thanks Hux, I figured as much. Just wanted Slewfoot to see the light. Apples and oranges. I find it odd though, that some people can say, "grow your own program", when we acquire scholarships. Sounds hypocritical no? That's where I was going with this. We already did I guess.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I don't think we had too much of a head start on the girls side. I've seen it take off, believe it or not, for only about the last 10-15 years. Do you think that your high school teams compare to say, teams in the PWHL? Because it sounds like the other teams you describe are in a different category. We'll start there.
PS.. I'll let it go this time, the "stereotype" comment.

Our High School teams definitely do not compare with the PWHL. There are some strong high school teams but in general a High School team is lucky if it has 1-2 D1 quality players on its team. The top team in the state had 4 players go D1 and they probably has 3-4 others that are D1 quality but are playing at the Fresh, Soph, Jr. age levels). The community based system in Minnesota is meant to first increase the number of players participating. Numbers do not necesarily result in overally quality.

High School hockey while exciting and fun for the majority doesn't compare to the quality of the summer hockey teams and the fall elite teams in Minnesota. The elite teams are some of the top talent. The summer teams can be at different levels from the top level (e.g. Icecats and Jr. Whitecaps which can be comparable to Shattuck type talent) to fun teams.

Again the stereotype comment was not meant to be offensive. I would think that someone would love to have a stereotype of being the "best", I know I would.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

While I don't agree with the vitriolic debate or Canadian bashing, I do think there is a valid question in all of this. I think schools should pursue the best players when that distinction is obvious but the question in my mind is, are Canadian girls that much better in reality or is it just perception that US coaches are chasing? I am from Minnesota. Our girls play Canadians often and while I have admired some exceptional Canadian players I haven't discerned a huge difference in overall talent from our Minnesota girls. If the Canadians are superior by all means coaches should pursue the best talent but I think that if all things are equal (talent, etc.) it would be nice if more American girls were given greater opportunity to play college hockey.

Our High School teams definitely do not compare with the PWHL. There are some strong high school teams but in general a High School team is lucky if it has 1-2 D1 quality players on its team. The top team in the state had 4 players go D1 and iut probably has 3-4 others that are D1 quality but are playing at the Fresh, Soph, Jr. age levels). The community based system in Minnesota is meant to first increase the number of players participating. Numbers do not necesarily result in overally quality.

High School hockey while exciting and fun for the majority doesn't compare to the quality of the summer hockey teams and the fall elite teams in Minnesota. The elite teams are some of the top talent. The summer teams can be at different levels from the top level (e.g. Icecats and Jr. Whitecaps which can be comparable to Shattuck type talent) to fun teams.

Again the stereotype comment was not meant to be offensive. I would think that someone would love to have a stereotype of being the "best", I know I would.

Compare these quotes could you and get back to us.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Compare these quotes could you and get back to us.

Exactly.

For perspective, all of the top half teams in the PWHL can give SSM quite a competitive game (and in many cases actually did this season). That's the equivalent of ~150 players on those 8-9 teams.....which of course doesn't include several other excellent individual players of comparable calibre on the weaker PWHL teams.

As Hux said, coaches are looking for players who they know can play a variety of roles within a team environment. Over the years, I have talked to some D1 coaches who have indicated that, while many Minnesota girls have individual skills that are second to none, the big advantage that Canadian, and even more specifically Ontario girls possess, is that they are as a group much more advanced in their understanding of the team game and team systems, and the role of individual players within that in various situations. That comes from living in a culture that is hockey-obsessed and where watching the game at a high level therefore tends to be more frequent. As well as even more importantly, many years of experience playing for and against teams composed of girls of more homogeneously high-skilled players, under the guidance of highly knowledgable coaches.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Trillium.....Give me your best assessment of the PWHL this year, as compared to previous years. If you have any other comments you would like to make on the state of hockey in Ontario, please do. I know the gap is tightening in many circles, so let us figure out why, and how good it is for hockey. I wish OnMAA would get get back to us on those stats.

 

[Lucky]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Exactly.

As Hux said, coaches are looking for players who they know can play a variety of roles within a team environment. Over the years, I have talked to some D1 coaches who have indicated that, while many Minnesota girls have individual skills that are second to none, the big advantage that Canadian, and even more specifically Ontario girls possess, is that they are as a group much more advanced in their understanding of the team game and team systems, and the role of individual players within that in various situations. That comes from living in a culture that is hockey-obsessed and where watching the game at a high level therefore tends to be more frequent. As well as even more importantly, many years of experience playing for and against teams composed of girls of more homogeneously high-skilled players, under the guidance of highly knowledgable coaches.

There are girls that play hockey outside of Ontario, honest!

Minnesota-Duluth Roster - 9 Canadians

4 Manitoba
3 Quebec
1 Nova Scotia
1 Ontario

Mercyhurst Roster - 12 Canadians

3 Manitoba
3 Alberta
3 Ontario
1 BC
1 Sask
1 Quebec