Americans-Canadians

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I wish OnMAA would get get back to us on those stats.

I'm supposed to do stats ?. Kinda busy with tryouts ongoing as we speak, watching NHL playoffs and ummh yeah need to work for a living sometimes.

Besides, I'm not sure that I wanna get on either band wagon in this US vs THEM debate.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

There are girls that play hockey outside of Ontario, honest!

Really?

Obviously. And many excellent ones. I realize Ontario doesn't have a monopoly on hockey.

Not intended to be a slight at all, sorry if it came across that way...my comments meant to reflect only that (1) in the conversations with the coaches I was referring to, we were actually talking specifically about Ontario players (because that's where I happen to be from), relative to those from the equivalent US hockey hotbed in Minnesota. I then extended that to include other Canadian players in the comment (2) most of the D1 coaches do the biggest proportion of their Canadian recruiting trips to Ontario, and correspondingly Ontario kids tend to make up a high proportion of D1 commits from Canada. This year the proportion is about 3/4 todate.

The big advantage Ontario players do have relative to those elsewhere, whether in Canada or US, is the concentration and depth of talent often found within their teams, and the proximity of multiple teams of similar talent to play against regularly in a ~70 game season.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Americans-Canadians

There are girls that play hockey outside of Ontario, honest!

Minnesota-Duluth Roster - 9 Canadians

4 Manitoba
3 Quebec
1 Nova Scotia
1 Ontario

Mercyhurst Roster - 12 Canadians

3 Manitoba
3 Alberta
3 Ontario
1 BC
1 Sask
1 Quebec

FWIW, your UMD roster numbers should have indicated 5 players from Manitoba...Sarah Murray is only recently a transplanted Manitoban.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I'm supposed to do stats ?. Kinda busy with tryouts ongoing as we speak, watching NHL playoffs and ummh yeah need to work for a living sometimes.

Besides, I'm not sure that I wanna get on either band wagon in this US vs THEM debate.

It's not a US vs Them debate. It's about the state of hockey in North America, how we got there, and where it's going. Some people just want to make it in to that, and that's ok. Your first paragraph is a pile of crap and you know it. Whatever......

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

If these stats are representative they would be telling and staggering:
- 45% of the roster on this club are Canadian (9 of 20)
- 80% of the Top scorers on the club are Canadian (8 of 10)
- 89% of the Canadians on the squad are in the clubs top 10 scoring list. (8 of 9)

I don't think the stats for one team reflects the overall NCAA distribution properly. Too small a sample size. You should do similar stats on ALL of the D1 population to come up with a more representative view. Not that hard to do with the data all available online.

I'll let you off the hook Happened to be stuck in a conference centre today for a couple of hours with nothing better to do....I have no patience for going through all 30-some rosters, so I hope using the Top 10 teams as per season-end rankings will suffice to give a reasonable sample size.

Top 10 Rosters Composition:

122 US's (56.2%), 87 Canadians (40.1%), 8 Int'l (3.7%)

Top 10 Scorers on the Top 10 Teams:

42 US's (42.0%), 54 Canadians (54.0%), 4 Int'l (4.0%)

Proportion of Total Players Recruited from that Country Not Within Top 10 Scorers on their Teams

US Players: 80 of 122 Total = 65.6% are "Bottom Half"
Cdn Players: 33 of 87 Total = 37.9% are "Bottom Half"
Int'l Players: 4 of 8 Total = 50.0% are "Bottom Half"

Note that these players are not necessarily weaker players on their respective teams though, as many excellent defensemen and all goalies would be included among bottom half scorers.

Among the Top 10 Goalies by Save % (the more accurate indicator of individual proficiency--actually there are 11 because of a tie), 2 (18.2%) are American, 5 (45.5%) are Canadian, and 4 (36.4%) are International.

A survey of the Top 50 scorers in the league overall indicates that (excluding Holy Cross, which the reduces the total to 46), 15 (32.6%) of the top scorers are American, 30 (65.2%) are Canadian, and 1 (2.2%) is Intl.

 

[John Frum]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I'm not sure I'd call Sarah Murray a "recently transplanted Manitoban". She's been playing during her school years in Minnesota since her dad coached at Shattuck in 98 -99

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I'm not sure I'd call Sarah Murray a "recently transplanted Manitoban". She's been playing during her school years in Minnesota since her dad coached at Shattuck in 98 -99

I meant relatively speaking. She's a native Manitoban and played for Team Manitoba in 2005-06.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Your first paragraph is a pile of crap and you know it. Whatever......

Not sure why you call it a pile of crap. Its been a great night of hockey. I just watched a great game that finished in 3rd OT and the guy that scored the winner grew up about 5 miles from where I live. His mother used to babysit our daughters, two of whom are still playing hockey. Meanwhile tryouts for both MAA and IAA are in full swing here. I'm involved with running some of it.

P.S NHL playoffs have been fantastic. Tomorrow Caps vs Habs.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Not sure why you call it a pile of crap. Its been a great night of hockey. I just watched a great game that finished in 3rd OT and the guy that scored the winner grew up about 5 miles from where I live. His mother used to babysit our daughters, two of whom are still playing hockey. Meanwhile tryouts for both MAA and IAA are in full swing here. I'm involved with running some of it.

P.S NHL playoffs have been fantastic. Tomorrow Caps vs Habs.

You're too sensitive. Before, you mentioned that more stats needed to be accumulated to provide a clearer picture (the full league thing). You also said that it would be easy, so naturally I thought you'd be best for the job, as you seem to thrive on this sort of stuff (history, stats etc.). If you're too busy, then forget it, no harm no foul.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Before, you mentioned that more stats needed to be accumulated to provide a clearer picture (the full league thing). You also said that it would be easy, so naturally I thought you'd be best for the job, as you seem to thrive on this sort of stuff (history, stats etc.). If you're too busy, then forget it, no harm no foul.

I never indicated I would do any stats ... just suggested that the ones presented for just one team were not representative...see below...

I don't think the stats for one team reflects the overall NCAA distribution properly. Too small a sample size. You should do similar stats on ALL of the D1 population to come up with a more representative view. Not that hard to do with the data all available online.

Saying that it is not hard to do, does not mean it is not time consuming. Any proper stat collection, measurement and interpretations are time consuming, unless you already have an existing set of measurements. In this case I would have to start from scratch, so a non-starter given other things on my plate at the moment.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Compare these quotes could you and get back to us.

In the first quote, I was talking about overall talent and the teams that play "off season" during the summer. In the second quote I was talking about the "in season" high school hockey. I think HUX's take on Minnesota is very accurate. I wish I could have been as clear as his description but sometimes it takes an outsider to sum it up so that another outsider can understand.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.

Good hockey players want to play and and improve against the best possible competition. Closing the doors to foriegners would result in an insular game. America is all about people from other places coming here to chase their dreams, and for Americans to test themselves against the best of the best from around the world. We should open the doors as wide as possible so that our players can learn and compete globally.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

In the first quote, I was talking about overall talent and the teams that play "off season" during the summer. In the second quote I was talking about the "in season" high school hockey. I think HUX's take on Minnesota is very accurate. I wish I could have been as clear as his description but sometimes it takes an outsider to sum it up so that another outsider can understand.

I think Trillium summed it up better.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Good hockey players want to play and and improve against the best possible competition. Closing the doors to foriegners would result in an insular game. America is all about people from other places coming here to chase their dreams, and for Americans to test themselves against the best of the best from around the world. We should open the doors as wide as possible so that out players can learn and compete globally.

How can we make the system even better Puck Swami? Great response by the way.

 

[ARM]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Minnesota-Duluth NCAA Championship 20 Player Roster

9 Canadians
8 USA (7 Minn, 1 Cal)
2 Finland
1 Germany

Top 10 Points

8 Canadians
1 Finland
1 USA (Cal)

This would serve as an argument for "you can attract better caliber players if you give them better scholarships". I am one who believes that the Canadian talent pool of women's hockey players is deeper than that of the US, and the same hold true for high-end talent. But the UMD roster is not any more representative of the comparative talent in the US and Canada than is the Minnesota roster during it's NCAA championship years of 2004 (3 Canadians) or 2005 (1 Canadian, predominantly Minnesota-born roster.)

That comes from living in a culture that is hockey-obsessed and where watching the game at a high level therefore tends to be more frequent.

When comparing MN HS Hockey and the PWHL, be mindful that it is very much an apples/oranges comparison. The PWHL's priority is hockey and hockey players. The Minnesota State High School League's priority is education, and then governing extracurricular activities in such a manner as to minimize the impact on that education while fostering competition. It does not make decisions with the aim of producing better hockey players, so in my mind, that is a bigger handicap than a cultural disadvantage.

I think Trillium summed it up better.

Trillium and Hux each have their strengths. Trillium understands the workings of hockey in Canada; Hux is more knowledgeable about what goes on in the US. By combining them, one gains more insight.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

This would serve as an argument for "you can attract better caliber players if you give them better scholarships". I am one who believes that the Canadian talent pool of women's hockey players is deeper than that of the US, and the same hold true for high-end talent. But the UMD roster is not any more representative of the comparative talent in the US and Canada than is the Minnesota roster during it's NCAA championship years of 2004 (3 Canadians) or 2005 (1 Canadian, predominantly Minnesota-born roster.)

When comparing MN HS Hockey and the PWHL, be mindful that it is very much an apples/oranges comparison. The PWHL's priority is hockey and hockey players. The Minnesota State High School League's priority is education, and then governing extracurricular activities in such a manner as to minimize the impact on that education while fostering competition. It does not make decisions with the aim of producing better hockey players, so in my mind, that is a bigger handicap than a cultural disadvantage.

Trillium and Hux each have their strengths. Trillium understands the workings of hockey in Canada; Hux is more knowledgeable about what goes on in the US. By combining them, one gains more insight.

Nice input ARM. Now what would you say to people who get upset when players from other countries obtain scholarships in the U.S. When they say that there is equal talent available in the U.S. that should have a priority. Is this true. I have no idea the depth of the talent pool. All I know is the countries(Canada and the U.S.) are very close when it comes to international competition.

 

[ARM]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Now what would you say to people who get upset when players from other countries obtain scholarships in the U.S.

In general, I think a program recruits a person, not a flag. Each individual situation will be different. Plus, the expectations for different programs will vary. At some schools, it might be okay to recruit 75% or more international players. I suspect that over the long term, that wouldn't fly at Minnesota, a program that was started to give girls coming out of the new HS hockey teams a local D-I option.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

When comparing MN HS Hockey and the PWHL, be mindful that it is very much an apples/oranges comparison. The PWHL's priority is hockey and hockey players. The Minnesota State High School League's priority is education, and then governing extracurricular activities in such a manner as to minimize the impact on that education while fostering competition. It does not make decisions with the aim of producing better hockey players, so in my mind, that is a bigger handicap than a cultural disadvantage.

.

Great point. I hadn't really even thought of that, or factored it in. The PWHL teams typically play around 70 games / season or more, so that also provides hockey-related benefits vs most US programs where the focus tends to be more focused on academics. Though obviously an academic focus can also have other benefits when it ultimately comes to recruiting.

BTW, thanks for the compliment.

 

[dogwatcher]

Re: Americans-Canadians

In general, I think a program recruits a person, not a flag. Each individual situation will be different. Plus, the expectations for different programs will vary. At some schools, it might be okay to recruit 75% or more international players. I suspect that over the long term, that wouldn't fly at Minnesota, a program that was started to give girls coming out of the new HS hockey teams a local D-I option.

The first two lines of this are right on the money. A coach gets paid to develope a program for the school. The schools objectives may vary from winning to grad rate, gpa or even be just another activity for incomming students. Any good coach is going to pick players that fit the needs of the school and team no matter where they are from. I think the system is fine the way it is. Yes maybe some girls from here in the states do lose a spot to girls from outside the states that happens in all sports ( look at any pro draft and see success rates ). I am just supprised no one has said anything about how many teams never plan to compete long or short term.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

The first two lines of this are right on the money. A coach gets paid to develope a program for the school. The schools objectives may vary from winning to grad rate, gpa or even be just another activity for incomming students. Any good coach is going to pick players that fit the needs of the school and team no matter where they are from. I think the system is fine the way it is. Yes maybe some girls from here in the states do lose a spot to girls from outside the states that happens in all sports ( look at any pro draft and see success rates ). I am just supprised no one has said anything about how many teams never plan to compete long or short term.

dogwatcher....Could you explain the last sentence of this post in more detail?