Americans-Canadians

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Just posting to make a comment about the "Tax Dollar" thing and private colleges. While private colleges may not receive direct funds from the govt., they do receive tax breaks to lower their tax fees. Those tax fees are covered by other tax payers in the tax pool, which seems to be growing smaller by the year.

Ok back to your regularly scheduled over Canada VS USA

Lots of companies, organizations and individuals get tax breaks for things that often don't necessarily benefit society as a whole. That occurs in every country.

And those private universities would still get those same tax breaks regardless of the proportion of Internationals vs Americans that were the ones going to those schools, would they not? Obviously those in charge of the private universities must believe there is value to ensuring the kind of international diversity that exists in their student body or they would adjust their admission policies accordingly to reduce it. It's very easy to do.

If all those private universities did not exist, the fact is that even more tax dollars would be needed to build and fund far more public universities, to ensure the Americans currently attending them all had access instead to public post-secondary educations, and at affordable costs for all.

That is the situation in Canada, as in most other countries of the world--where private universities generally don't exist. Our tax dollars go towards directly subsidizing all university educations, to allow for a basic tuition of ~$5,000 for all Canadians.

The point is, if anyone doesn't think the current funding/tuition formula in the US makes sense, lobby your governments, and/or alma maters to have it changed/ improved. But it is a unique made-in-America solution.

What doesn't make sense is blaming Canadians or anyone else for a system Americans created all on their own.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

The other reason that I neglected to mention why we don't see more US players north of the border is recruiting. Not that I go to a lot of the major US tourneys, but I'm hard pressed to think of anyone mentioning a Canadian coach scouting girls at a US tournament. Perhaps they keep a low profile.

Not too sure why Canadian coaches don't scout/recruit south of the border.
.

Canadian coaches (with rare exceptions, most notably Laurier) don't even scout/recruit NORTH of the border...even though there are no rules on how early or how often you can make contact! That is true even for the best prospects.

Personal experience in our family for perspectives: 4 Canadian schools sent single letters/emails, no phone calls, rink talks or follow-ups; versus ~40 US D1 & D3 schools, usually with multiple extended contacts from the D1's.

Reasons relate to different sports cultures, lack of full-time paid coaches to do the work, miniscule recruiting budgets, and also the mindset that students would prefer to go to the US if they can, with Canada being a "last resort" for athletes....they believe if you really want to go to their school, you will eventually contact them if you are interested. It is more cost efficient that way.

Canadian coaches are not paid to win (some are not paid at all). Many have been in their roles for a decade or more and have never come close to a winning season. It generally does not put their job in jeopardy, as it is seen merely as an expensive extra-curricular activity offered to students, not seen as an investment in the reputation of the school, or a way of attracting potential students in future years, or as a potential fundraising tool among alumni as in the US.

Your right, neither approach is either right or wrong, they are just different based on different value systems. Both have their pros and cons.

As to the Canadian system of admission by grades, it never has worked here, as the K-12 educational system here is so decentralized in administration, comparing grades is pretty much meaningless when going across district boundaries, sometimes even within a school district.
.

That is truly the beauty of our educational system. The courses offered and the curriculum in each is completely standardized across each province by the Education Ministry. Though the curriculum in private schools is often quite enhanced beyond this, every student in Ontario learns the same materials, and is graded on the same learning standards in every grade and course.

There is also standardized testing at various checkpoints in Grades 3 & 6 reading, writing and math, and in Grade 10 for literacy, where every student writes these same tests at the same time. Every school's results are scored centrally, and compared and published to ensure they are on track to target.

Schools are ranked on that basis, so it is in the interest of each school to ensure they are improving their results from year to year.

If I wanted my daughter to go to a prestigous Canadian University, I would have kept her in the public schools where we live where she wasn't challenged and grading was generous. Would have looked wonderful on paper. Instead, I sent her to boarding school (definitely not cheap) to be in a place where she would be challenged and encouraged.

I definitely agree with you that focusing on ensuring your children get the best education you can afford is never a mistake in the long run. We're certainly extremely glad we made the sacrifices we did to ensure the same.

My compatriot "The Prof", who has more expertise than I in such matters, has corrected me that US students are actually required to submit SAT scores for admission to Canadian schools. So the private school route would no doubt have also helped there, even if the grading isn't as generous as in a more lenient school.

No doubt the additional SAT requirements relate back to that lack of standardized curriculum and grading from school to school in the US.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Americans-Canadians

It is always a pleasure to exchange information with people of good will from different backgrounds. No preconceptions that how we do it is better than how someone else does it.

I've enjoyed the different perspectives of our Canadian regulars around here. While this thread hasn't always been pretty, there is some good to come from it.

Cheers!

 

[gotice]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Lots of companies, organizations and individuals get tax breaks for things that often don't necessarily benefit society as a whole. That occurs in every country.

And those private universities would still get those same tax breaks regardless of the proportion of Internationals vs Americans that were the ones going to those schools, would they not? Obviously those in charge of the private universities must believe there is value to ensuring the kind of international diversity that exists in their student body or they would adjust their admission policies accordingly to reduce it. It's very easy to do.

If all those private universities did not exist, the fact is that even more tax dollars would be needed to build and fund far more public universities, to ensure the Americans currently attending them all had access instead to public post-secondary educations, and at affordable costs for all.

That is the situation in Canada, as in most other countries of the world--where private universities generally don't exist. Our tax dollars go towards directly subsidizing all university educations, to allow for a basic tuition of ~$5,000 for all Canadians.

The point is, if anyone doesn't think the current funding/tuition formula in the US makes sense, lobby your governments, and/or alma maters to have it changed/ improved. But it is a unique made-in-America solution.

What doesn't make sense is blaming Canadians or anyone else for a system Americans created all on their own.

Trillium, I was not arguing about Canadian players coming to America to get an education. I was simply stating that Private Universities also receive tax dollars in a round about way.

With regards to the argument about the benefits or negatives of the practice of scholarships to foreign students, is that whether a school provides a scholarship to an foreign athlete or provides a scholarship to a foreign academic student, benefits the college environment as a whole. In our ever shrinking world, it is beneficial for students to have association with persons from all over, with different backgrounds.

 

[NJCPolarBear]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Ugly American...ya, that's a new one. U would be surprised. And yes I own a Honda...actually I own 2.


I don't have a problem with foreign students coming to American Colleges...provided they pay their own way, and represent a small % of the college population. However, don't you find it rather "odd" for a college to enroll, say 1% Canadians, yet have a hockey team roster that's 55% Canadian? If you don't find that a little queer, then perhaps you are.


Time for a change.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Ugly American...ya, that's a new one. U would be surprised. And yes I own a Honda...actually I own 2.


I don't have a problem with foreign students coming to American Colleges...provided they pay their own way, and represent a small % of the college population. However, don't you find it rather "odd" for a college to enroll, say 1% Canadians, yet have a hockey team roster that's 55% Canadian? If you don't find that a little queer, then perhaps you are.


Time for a change.

In case you missed post #38, can you tell us why the college chooses to do this?

 

[RStarr]

Re: Americans-Canadians

If you don't find that a little queer, then perhaps you are.

Whats wrong with being queer? Stop the hate, don't discriminate!!

 

[sillywench]

Re: Americans-Canadians

She's referring to the fact that the BC men just won the national championship.

I knew that....

Was in a round about way trying to point out to SillyWench that she was addressing the wrong audience.

Opening post -

Who knows more about hockey? Who is in better position to succeed? Just a fun (I think) thread to pass the time through summer. I know it's a women's forum, but everything is welcome. It's summer, almost. You have to admit that a lot of the opinions are border influenced. After the recent results, what do you think?

Sorry - late getting back, but I took the above to mean this was a genderless A v C discussion.

Thought # 1 - Can you imagine what kind of hockey you would be watching without Canadians in your game?

I had just watched several very non competitive games won by bc - with a college roster full of Americans. Not just Americans, but also not so high draft picks ta' boot. It was beautiful hockey and the only thing uncomfortable about watching it was the total domination of the other teams.

I'm not with the polarbear in trying to herd the canadians out of US college hockey.

I do, though, appreciate coaches and teams who do the 'most' with the 'least' so to speak - and appreciate the recruiting skills that go into being able to find real hockey talent without a canadian passport, nhl pedigree/ancestors or relying exclusively on the Canadian good old hockey boy/girl network.

THOSE are some evaluation skills. Signing a player that everyone in Ontario says is the best - not so much. I do understand the financial reality of recruiting - there is not enough money in the world to find all the diamonds in the rough.

Some of the canadian dominance is sheer player numbers and high level playing opportunities due to player density producing many polished and ready players.

But IMO, some of the Canadian dominance in us college numbers is part style preference, part home-boy/girl picks by Canadian coaches and part easy pickins'. None of those factors really affect the quality of the game - but they do leave equally talented US girls out of the loop.

It is not anything evil though - coaching/managing the the us game has been dominated by those originating from parts North for a long time. The bias is built into athletic departments too - the easy decision is to pick a Canadian and thus help propagate future canadian filled teams. Change is slow.

Please don't paint me as an ugly American - I've got kids who qualify for Canadian citizenship. Just always been a keen watcher of the underdog - and that is the US hockey players in this case.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Opening post -


Sorry - late getting back, but I took the above to mean this was a genderless A v C discussion.



I had just watched several very non competitive games won by bc - with a college roster full of Americans. Not just Americans, but also not so high draft picks ta' boot. It was beautiful hockey and the only thing uncomfortable about watching it was the total domination of the other teams.

I'm not with the polarbear in trying to herd the canadians out of US college hockey.

I do, though, appreciate coaches and teams who do the 'most' with the 'least' so to speak - and appreciate the recruiting skills that go into being able to find real hockey talent without a canadian passport, nhl pedigree/ancestors or relying exclusively on the Canadian good old hockey boy/girl network.

THOSE are some evaluation skills. Signing a player that everyone in Ontario says is the best - not so much. I do understand the financial reality of recruiting - there is not enough money in the world to find all the diamonds in the rough.

Some of the canadian dominance is sheer player numbers and high level playing opportunities due to player density producing many polished and ready players.

But IMO, some of the Canadian dominance in us college numbers is part style preference, part home-boy/girl picks by Canadian coaches and part easy pickins'. None of those factors really affect the quality of the game - but they do leave equally talented US girls out of the loop.

It is not anything evil though - coaching/managing the the us game has been dominated by those originating from parts North for a long time. The bias is built into athletic departments too - the easy decision is to pick a Canadian and thus help propagate future canadian filled teams. Change is slow.

Please don't paint me as an ugly American - I've got kids who qualify for Canadian citizenship. Just always been a keen watcher of the underdog - and that is the US hockey players in this case.

I poked fun at you earlier for posting about a mens game in the womens forum, so it is only fair to commend you on an Excellent post. Well Said.

 

[BTW67]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Ugly American...ya, that's a new one. U would be surprised. And yes I own a Honda...actually I own 2.


I don't have a problem with foreign students coming to American Colleges...provided they pay their own way, and represent a small % of the college population. However, don't you find it rather "odd" for a college to enroll, say 1% Canadians, yet have a hockey team roster that's 55% Canadian? If you don't find that a little queer, then perhaps you are.


Time for a change.

So it’s OK for you to send your money overseas for a Honda that adds value for you, but not OK for a university to spend money on a Canadian who adds value to their program?

If you want more Americans on DI teams, then how about putting some effort into growing your local girls’ programs?

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I had just watched several very non competitive games won by bc - with a college roster full of Americans. Not just Americans, but also not so high draft picks ta' boot. It was beautiful hockey and the only thing uncomfortable about watching it was the total domination of the other teamS.

The BC women did not have any Canadians on their roster as well. They did not make out as well as their male counter parts. Just saying!

 

[NJCPolarBear]

Re: Americans-Canadians

So it’s OK for you to send your money overseas for a Honda that adds value for you, but not OK for a university to spend money on a Canadian who adds value to their program?

If you want more Americans on DI teams, then how about putting some effort into growing your local girls’ programs?

You sound like maybe you got your 'degree' from a 'prestigious' Canadian University....Probably in economics....What a maroon.

 

[sillywench]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I poked fun at you earlier for posting about a mens game in the womens forum, so it is only fair to commend you on an Excellent post. Well Said.

No worries, but thank you. I do realize that the situation is different mens v womens. It is tougher for our women (especially those outside of the couple parts of the country with big numbers of players in a small area) to compete for the highest level player slots - especially with both countries feeding into the one college system at the upper levels of play.

The BC women did not have any Canadians on their roster as well. They did not make out as well as their male counter parts. Just saying!

ya, ya - got it - I'm jus' saying it is POSSIBLE to put together a team of US players that can do the job well - and not just with 'all stars' at the national level. 5fer's ****y little question got my goat. My point was most definitely NOT that all teams of all US players are superior. better?

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

However, don't you find it rather "odd" for a college to enroll, say 1% Canadians, yet have a hockey team roster that's 55% Canadian? If you don't find that a little queer, then perhaps you are.

.

Well, apparently other than BC, none of the coaches at universities with D1 teams, or their admission departments, think it's odd at all. And judging by the lack of support you are getting in this thread, most others don't find it odd either.

Which I guess leave you as the one who's the odd man out.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

So it’s OK for you to send your money overseas for a Honda that adds value for you, but not OK for a university to spend money on a Canadian who adds value to their program?

Of course.

The difference is this. He doesn't work for GM, Ford or Chrysler, nor does anyone in his family...so there's no downside to him to buy a foreign car that he perceives as better.

However, he does really want to see his daughter playing college hockey on a scholarship, and he sees Canadians who are likely better than she is as a potential threat to that.

 

[NJCPolarBear]

Re: Americans-Canadians

wrong again, Trilly. You too must be a Canadian Univ. grad w/o a clue. Hard to argue with a 3rd grade education. Sorry you just don't get it...I'll try to write slower so you can follow along.

Still, none of you has even tried to argue the point [because you can't]....Why, in a non-revenue sport are U.S. colleges filling their rosters 50% or more with carpetbaggers?
Please let me know why this is not happening in other sports, for example college Soccer [where the rest of the world is miles ahead of the U.S. and therefore you would expect most rosters to be 90% non-U.S players]?? Please, genius, just answer that one.

[Go B.C.....way to go Ms. King!]

 

[brookyone]

Re: Americans-Canadians

His Honda could have very possibly been built in the USA by Americans...or in Canada by Canadians...just sayin'.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Hard to argue with a 3rd grade education.

Yes it is. Only smart thing you've ever said. So we'll take your advice and all stop arguing with you.

 

[Hux]

Re: Americans-Canadians

wrong again, Trilly. You too must be a Canadian Univ. grad w/o a clue. Hard to argue with a 3rd grade education. Sorry you just don't get it...I'll try to write slower so you can follow along.

Still, none of you has even tried to argue the point [because you can't]....Why, in a non-revenue sport are U.S. colleges filling their rosters 50% or more with carpetbaggers?
Please let me know why this is not happening in other sports, for example college Soccer [where the rest of the world is miles ahead of the U.S. and therefore you would expect most rosters to be 90% non-U.S players]?? Please, genius, just answer that one.

[Go B.C.....way to go Ms. King!]

Because there are Canadians, Swedes, Finns, Germans, and Swiss etc. that can speak/read/write English well enough to be admitted. You don't have to go across the pond and beat the bushes recruiting, and most importantly tax dollars aren't used for scholarships because schools know some Nationalistic tool like you is going to whine. (Plus, there aren't that many state schools with D1 programs anyway.)

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

His Honda could have very possibly been built in the USA by Americans...or in Canada by Canadians...just sayin'.

True dat, but the wasting of his tax dollars which he professes are his top concern, are going to heavily subsidize the US automakers.