Americans-Canadians

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

She's referring to the fact that the BC men just won the national championship.

I knew that....

Was in a round about way trying to point out to SillyWench that she was addressing the wrong audience.

 

[GoBucky36]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.

Everyone wants to win and if that means importing players from Canada, so be it. I dont care where youre from, if you put on a Wisconsin jersey and help the team win, I will cheer for you.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.

Brooky....is that you?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.

Well college teams try to field the best teams, so they recruit the best talent at their disposal. Hate to disappoint you, but most Canuck players in the US D1 system make the teams they play for better. Without them the quality of play would a significantly reduced by virtue of the fact that the D1 talent pool is reduced by 40-45%. If you really think that there is enough similar caliber available in the US to replace that 45%, you would have seen a trend develop years ago for colleges to take more homegrown talent. That has not happened. As long as Canadians are offered significant FA offers or scholarships, they will continue to come.

If you really believe in the principle of US only at home, you should direct your venting to-wards the NCAA/US Schools, not to-wards the Canadian players.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.

What is a carpetbagger? We'll start from there.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Americans-Canadians

What is a carpetbagger? We'll start from there.

Was wondering about that term myself, as it sounded "offensive". So I looked up what it meant and found that it is a US based term, stemming from the Civil war era:

Etymology: from their carrying all their belongings in carpetbags
Date: 1868
1 : a Northerner in the South after the American Civil War usually seeking private gain under the reconstruction governments
2 : outsider; especially : a nonresident or new resident who seeks private gain from an area often by meddling in its business or politics

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Was wondering about that term myself, as it sounded "offensive". So I looked up what it meant and found that it is a US based term, stemming from the Civil war era:

Etymology: from their carrying all their belongings in carpetbags
Date: 1868
1 : a Northerner in the South after the American Civil War usually seeking private gain under the reconstruction governments
2 : outsider; especially : a nonresident or new resident who seeks private gain from an area often by meddling in its business or politics

d*mn Yankees.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Americans-Canadians

What is a carpetbagger? We'll start from there.

As a relative expert on the subject of things southern (as compared to the Canadians), the explanations given above were technically correct but don't truly explain the negativity felt by southerners when using the term.

The "carpet bag" truly was a bag made from a remnant of carpet and was used for travel that wasn't considered long-term, where you might use a steamer trunk for example., as carpet bags were not large nor sturdy.

Many northern businessmen came south carrying carpet bags after the US Civil War who were there to make a quick buck in a business deal and return north. Southerners had a tradition of being welcoming to those wishing to join them to stay and build a community. If you were bringing money to invest and build and stay, you were always welcomed. You quickly became part of the community and business was done very personally in the south. They took great offense to these "carpet baggers" who came in great numbers to feast off the financial ruin of many successful businesses that were wrecked during the war and then leave the community usually worse than when they arrived.

Some may argue that Canadians coming south to play hockey in the US and then return back home may be the equivalent. I'd rather not look at them this way, as for the most part, they are recruited to the US (unlike the carpetbaggers of the 19th century) by the coaches who are trying to compete and as players are just trying to enjoy their sport but get a good education first. Yes, there may be some who really are out to just manage their hockey career (taking scholarships at lesser schools than they would have attended in Canada just to say they played D1), but for the most part I can't be angry at the Canadians playing here.

I think you'd see more Americans going to University in Canada if the finances made sense. While Canadian schools are cheap for Canadians, I believe it is far more expensive for Americans than staying south of the border considering the limited moneys available for scholarships. I think the interest would be there, as my own daughter who very much enjoyed the time we spent in Canada at tournaments over the years asked me a few years ago whether playing college hockey in Canada would be an option.

However, as mentioned above, Canada's university system has a different mission than that of the US - it doesn't value athletics the same; its programs are oriented more towards practical degrees (for local employers as opposed to American employers - it is amazing how few businesses understand Canadian school degrees here). I'm not even sure that they value having many international students in their population - or if they do, it doesn't seem to be as pervasive as the interest American universities demonstrate towards international students. It is a missed opportunity on the part of Canadians, although I could understand that their system could very easily be overrun by Americans if they made it easy to get admission and cheap and the Canadians would come up with a derrogatory term such as carpet bagger for the students who come north for the cheap school, crowding out the locals and then returning south and taking their schooling with them.

My $.02 - about the equivalent of Trillium's 3 cents Canadian these days given the exchange rates.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I think you'd see more Americans going to University in Canada if the finances made sense. While Canadian schools are cheap for Canadians, I believe it is far more expensive for Americans than staying south of the border considering the limited moneys available for scholarships. I think the interest would be there, as my own daughter who very much enjoyed the time we spent in Canada at tournaments over the years asked me a few years ago whether playing college hockey in Canada would be an option.

However, as mentioned above, Canada's university system has a different mission than that of the US - it doesn't value athletics the same; its programs are oriented more towards practical degrees (for local employers as opposed to American employers - it is amazing how few businesses understand Canadian school degrees here). I'm not even sure that they value having many international students in their population - or if they do, it doesn't seem to be as pervasive as the interest American universities demonstrate towards international students. It is a missed opportunity on the part of Canadians, although I could understand that their system could very easily be overrun by Americans if they made it easy to get admission and cheap

BTW, thanks for the very interesting history lesson.

Actually, I think you will find that, even with the inflated tuition charges for international students, a Canadian university education is still quite reasonably priced as compared to paying full freight at an equivalent top private US college.

I know that Canadian friends of mine who have lived and raised a family in the NYC area for the past 15+ years, are planning on sending their 3 children to top schools in Canada for reasons of economics. Similarly, we got to know two prosperous American couples from the East Coast on a cruise, and they indicated that they as well as all of their extended family members went to McGill for their educations. Carpet-baggers! [In my graduating class (many years ago now), there actually were several students from other countries, including the US, Bermuda, Hong Kong, China and Europe, too.]

But in addition to potential cost advantages of schooling in Canada vs US, part of the problem Americans face in attending top US schools--exacerbated by those lacking legacy or athletic recruit status--is that it can be akin to winning a lottery merely to gain admission. This is another advantage to considering top Canadian universities. McGill for example, is very well regarded and highly ranked internationally relative to many very good US schools. As a result of the different admissions system, anyone with marks in the high-80's will be able to attend if they wish--no essays, SATs, insufficient hooks, ethnic status, or other subjective assessments complicate your chances.

You are right in saying that Canadian universities don't specifically value internationals (nor any other geographic, ethnic, demographic, economic or psychographic distribution) in offering admission. Nor do they discriminate on those bases. They value straight marks alone. If the students with the best marks applying all happened to be girls from China, the entire incoming class at that university would all then be Chinese girls (well at least in the short term until the public revolted and got the government involved).

So, Canadian universities might very well be worth considering for some US student athletes from families not eligible for US scholarship/financial aid, and with good marks.

IIRC, I believe a couple of US hockey players have signed NLI's to St. Francis Xavier for next season. St. FX is a very highly regarded school in Atlantic Canada according to the MacLean rankings (Canadian equivalent to USNWR) with a highly ranked hockey program too. I have also seen a few Americans listed on some of the other Canadian school hockey rosters previously (but very few to-date). So it certainly does occur.

For the record too, many of the Canadians who go to the US for school end up staying in the US either because they got a job there upon graduation and/or met an American and then got married ....my niece was one of them who did both. This, by the above-noted definition, of course means they aren't then carpetbaggers at all.

 

[RStarr]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I support the import of Canadians (and no, not to eat!). Without, we would not have been graced by Sara Bauer. Seriously? Sara Bauer is God's gift to the world, not just hockey. Its Sara freaking Bauer.


I love you Sara!!!

 

[LG4]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Was wondering about that term myself, as it sounded "offensive". So I looked up what it meant and found that it is a US based term, stemming from the Civil war era:

Etymology: from their carrying all their belongings in carpetbags
Date: 1868
1 : a Northerner in the South after the American Civil War usually seeking private gain under the reconstruction governments
2 : outsider; especially : a nonresident or new resident who seeks private gain from an area often by meddling in its business or politics

using wikipedia ( grain of salt)
Reforming impulse
Beginning in 1862 thousands of Northern abolitionists and other self-described reformers moved to areas in the South where secession by the Confederates states had failed. Many school teachers and religious missionaries arrived in the South, some of them sponsored by northern churches. Many were abolitionists who sought to continue the struggle for racial equality; they often became agents of the federal Freedmen's Bureau, which started operations in 1865 to assist freedmen and also white refugees. The bureau established public schools in rural areas of the South where public schools had not previously existed. Other Northerners who moved to the South participated in establishing railroads where infrastructure was lacking.[2][3]

During the time African-American families had been enslaved, there was virtually no access to schools. Thousands of white women moved South; many to teach newly-freed African-American children.[4]So not all these northerns were there for their own gain but to help along the south

 

[SeymoreHockey]

Re: Americans-Canadians

My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.

watta goof...be he doesnt drive a Honda either...!!! Dont waste air on this knob.

 

[NJCPolarBear]

Re: Americans-Canadians

The situation you describe is "typical Canadian"....i.e. like most everything else they do [e.g. Military, medical care, international, etc.] they SPONGE off the U.S. Taxpayer....Rather than doing it themselves.

In this case, they have a huge base of hockey players who want to play college hockey. Hummmm...The 'American' solution would be to build a college hockey program from the ground up, that would support that need....But the Canadians..oh, no, that would require too much effort, money and work...Much better to simply ship your kids south and sponge off the U.S. taxpayer. Problem solved.

I don't fault the Canadian girls for coming... If we're stupid enough to keep paying for them, why wouldn't they come? My problem is with the US colleges and the NCAA who does not address the stupidity of this situation.

Time for a change.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

The situation you describe is "typical Canadian"....i.e. like most everything else they do [e.g. Military, medical care, international, etc.] they SPONGE off the U.S. Taxpayer....Rather than doing it themselves.

In this case, they have a huge base of hockey players who want to play college hockey. Hummmm...The 'American' solution would be to build a college hockey program from the ground up, that would support that need....But the Canadians..oh, no, that would require too much effort, money and work...Much better to simply ship your kids south and sponge off the U.S. taxpayer. Problem solved.

I don't fault the Canadian girls for coming... If we're stupid enough to keep paying for them, why wouldn't they come? My problem is with the US colleges and the NCAA who does not address the stupidity of this situation.

Time for a change.

I think you are missing the point here. There has to be a reason why they choose players from other countries, correct? What, do you think, that might be?
Hint-- Japanese players in MLB. And don't forget that win or go home is the American way right? No disrespect intended.

 

[NJCPolarBear]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Hey CanHoc...I'll play along.

Do you think that maybe there are better college-age gymnasts in say, China, Russia, Romainia, etc. than there are in the US? Better swimmers in Australia, better soccer players in England, Germany, Nigeria, Korea, etc.???

Then why don't we have 50% non-U.S. students playing those sports here...in particular for NON REVENUE SPORTS.....

Makes NO SENSE. Stay in Canada and build your own program.


p.s. even makes less sense when you watch Olympic players who spent 4 years on a free ride in the States [on our dime] turn around and beat us in the Olympics [hockey, track, etc.]. Only in America.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Americans-Canadians

The situation you describe is "typical Canadian"....i.e. like most everything else they do [e.g. Military, medical care, international, etc.] they SPONGE off the U.S. Taxpayer....Rather than doing it themselves.

In this case, they have a huge base of hockey players who want to play college hockey. Hummmm...The 'American' solution would be to build a college hockey program from the ground up, that would support that need....But the Canadians..oh, no, that would require too much effort, money and work...Much better to simply ship your kids south and sponge off the U.S. taxpayer. Problem solved.

I don't fault the Canadian girls for coming... If we're stupid enough to keep paying for them, why wouldn't they come? My problem is with the US colleges and the NCAA who does not address the stupidity of this situation.

Time for a change.

I get it. You're one of those thankfully rare but stereotypical "Ugly American" types that give the rest an unfortunate bad name. In your opinion, everything the US does is so superior and everything every other country does must be completely misguided, and the rest of us just want to be more like you in every way when we grow up.


I could comment on so many ways that perception is so out to lunch, but I have no interest in starting a war. Canadians are international peacekeepers.

All I will say on the subject is this: Aside from the fact that Canadians actually pay WAY more in taxes than Americans to support those in greater need, since most of the US universities with D1 hockey programs are actually private rather than publically funded, I'm quite confident it is not as a result of your extreme generousity as a taxpayer that Canadians are getting as many educational opportunities as they are.

 

[The Prof]

Re: Americans-Canadians

But in addition to potential cost advantages of schooling in Canada vs US, part of the problem Americans face in attending top US schools--exacerbated by those lacking legacy or athletic recruit status--is that it can be akin to winning a lottery merely to gain admission. This is another advantage to considering top Canadian universities. McGill for example, is very well regarded and highly ranked internationally relative to many very good US schools. As a result of the different admissions system, anyone with marks in the high-80's will be able to attend if they wish--no essays, SATs, insufficient hooks, ethnic status, or other subjective assessments complicate your chances.

Trillium,

Actually, US kids do need SAT scores to get into Canadian schools, at least the top ones. I know this from experience as a recruiter for one of those schools. We do get some, especially if they are dual citizens.

The Prof

PS Good choice of words, "Ugly American" for the originator of this thread. Shoots their mouth off before they have their facts straight. Just like the Fox News (An oxymoron I believe if I every saw one) Network.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Americans-Canadians

Hey CanHoc...I'll play along.

Do you think that maybe there are better college-age gymnasts in say, China, Russia, Romainia, etc. than there are in the US? Better swimmers in Australia, better soccer players in England, Germany, Nigeria, Korea, etc.???

Then why don't we have 50% non-U.S. students playing those sports here...in particular for NON REVENUE SPORTS.....

Makes NO SENSE. Stay in Canada and build your own program.


p.s. even makes less sense when you watch Olympic players who spent 4 years on a free ride in the States [on our dime] turn around and beat us in the Olympics [hockey, track, etc.]. Only in America.

Ok, now that you're playing along, tell me why they do it if it makes no sense.

 

[gotice]

Re: Americans-Canadians

I get it. You're one of those thankfully rare but stereotypical "Ugly American" types that give the rest an unfortunate bad name. In your opinion, everything the US does is so superior and everything every other country does must be completely misguided, and the rest of us just want to be more like you in every way when we grow up.


I could comment on so many ways that perception is so out to lunch, but I have no interest in starting a war. Canadians are international peacekeepers.

All I will say on the subject is this: Aside from the fact that Canadians actually pay WAY more in taxes than Americans to support those in greater need, since most of the US universities with D1 hockey programs are actually private rather than publically funded, I'm quite confident it is not as a result of your extreme generousity as a taxpayer that Canadians are getting as many educational opportunities as they are.

Just posting to make a comment about the "Tax Dollar" thing and private colleges. While private colleges may not receive direct funds from the govt., they do receive tax breaks to lower their tax fees. Those tax fees are covered by other tax payers in the tax pool, which seems to be growing smaller by the year.

Ok back to your regularly scheduled over Canada VS USA

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Americans-Canadians

BTW, thanks for the very interesting history lesson.

Actually, I think you will find that, even with the inflated tuition charges for international students, a Canadian university education is still quite reasonably priced as compared to paying full freight at an equivalent top private US college.

I know that Canadian friends of mine who have lived and raised a family in the NYC area for the past 15+ years, are planning on sending their 3 children to top schools in Canada for reasons of economics. Similarly, we got to know two prosperous American couples from the East Coast on a cruise, and they indicated that they as well as all of their extended family members went to McGill for their educations. Carpet-baggers! [In my graduating class (many years ago now), there actually were several students from other countries, including the US, Bermuda, Hong Kong, China and Europe, too.]

But in addition to potential cost advantages of schooling in Canada vs US, part of the problem Americans face in attending top US schools--exacerbated by those lacking legacy or athletic recruit status--is that it can be akin to winning a lottery merely to gain admission. This is another advantage to considering top Canadian universities. McGill for example, is very well regarded and highly ranked internationally relative to many very good US schools. As a result of the different admissions system, anyone with marks in the high-80's will be able to attend if they wish--no essays, SATs, insufficient hooks, ethnic status, or other subjective assessments complicate your chances.

You are right in saying that Canadian universities don't specifically value internationals (nor any other geographic, ethnic, demographic, economic or psychographic distribution) in offering admission. Nor do they discriminate on those bases. They value straight marks alone. If the students with the best marks applying all happened to be girls from China, the entire incoming class at that university would all then be Chinese girls (well at least in the short term until the public revolted and got the government involved).

So, Canadian universities might very well be worth considering for some US student athletes from families not eligible for US scholarship/financial aid, and with good marks.

IIRC, I believe a couple of US hockey players have signed NLI's to St. Francis Xavier for next season. St. FX is a very highly regarded school in Atlantic Canada according to the MacLean rankings (Canadian equivalent to USNWR) with a highly ranked hockey program too. I have also seen a few Americans listed on some of the other Canadian school hockey rosters previously (but very few to-date). So it certainly does occur.

For the record too, many of the Canadians who go to the US for school end up staying in the US either because they got a job there upon graduation and/or met an American and then got married ....my niece was one of them who did both. This, by the above-noted definition, of course means they aren't then carpetbaggers at all.

The problem with comparing costs between private schools (even in this country) is the fact that at many of them, almost nobody pays retail. There are "merit" scholarships with rather nebulous requirements which give schools ways to engineer the price you pay to match where you stand in the incoming class. So if you are in the top 10% of applicants, you will pay substantially less (often less than instate public) than someone who is maybe in the top 25%. If you are an average applicant (or below), they might knock off $5000 off of their $30,000 tuition (plus $12K in room & board).

The publics here typically have a few merit scholarships for the top 5-10% of applicants, generally based upon some objective criteria (GPA/Class Rank/SAT scores, National Merit Finalist) and often those are limited to instate students. Most FA at publics is need-based (income with a small look at assets over a certain income).

Of course, this doesn't allegedly have anything to do with athletic scholarships (or the lack of them in D3). However, it would seem that many athletes at D3 privates seem to do quite well in that nebulous merit money category.

The other reason that I neglected to mention why we don't see more US players north of the border is recruiting. I imagine it can be quite impressionable upon a young lady up north when American coaches (D1 and many top D3's near the border) come calling. Not that I go to a lot of the major US tourneys, but I'm hard pressed to think of anyone mentioning a Canadian coach scouting girls at a US tournament. Perhaps they keep a low profile.

Not too sure why Canadian coaches don't scout/recruit south of the border. No budget? Not being evaluated on how much you improve the results of the team? I can't imagine that there isn't enough talent here that would think a Canadian college experience would be the adventure of a lifetime. Not all of us Yanks are hell-bent on playing D1 (even if sitting on the bench for 4 years).

Once again, I think it is a different way the US and Canadian systems approach college athletics. Not right or wrong, but just the mission of the different institutions in different cultures.

As to the Canadian system of admission by grades, it never has worked here, as the K-12 educational system here is so decentralized in administration, comparing grades is pretty much meaningless when going across district boundaries, sometimes even within a school district. Universities here use the dreaded standardized test scores as a method to try to level the playing field, but that results in other inequities such as the cram schools that the well-off use to train students for the tests. College admissions officers spend a lot of effort trying to figure out exactly how qualified applicants are based upon a myriad of statistics.

If I wanted my daughter to go to a prestigous Canadian University, I would have kept here in the public schools where we live where she wasn't challenged and grading was generous. Would have looked wonderful on paper. Instead, I sent her to boarding school (definitely not cheap) to be in a place where she would be challenged and encouraged.

Lots of considerations.