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$5 Gas... It's De-Ja-Vu All Over Again...

Naively as a layman, I would think long-term scalable storage is one of those things that's just a matter of time. It smells like an extrapolation from current knowledge and technology. No "then a miracle occurs" leap is necessary (as was with e.g. semi-conduction or entanglement).
 
Let me ask a massively naive question. The Earth rotates. That is a fuck ton of kinetic energy. Is there any way to skim that off directly? I understand that wind and tidal sources are indirectly tapping it.
 
The Sicatoka said:
Wind is wonderful, but it's unreliable. We need large scale energy storage to make it reliable for baseline load.

Here in ND, where Handy can confirm the wind blows, Minnkota Power has 457MW (faceplate) of wind. That's perfect conditions generation rating. None of their three sites have been anywhere near that in 24 hours. You can't rely on wind right now.
Click to expand...

You want energy independence, then you need to get power from all available resources. The fact that you are "well, but" just says that you are another BS'er who pretends to care.

Every MWhr of wind we get for electricity is another MWhr of HC that we don't import, based on your "desire".
 
MichVandal said:
You want energy independence, then you need to get power from all available resources. The fact that you are "well, but" just says that you are another BS'er who pretends to care.

Every MWhr of wind we get for electricity is another MWhr of HC that we don't import, based on your "desire".
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It doesn't do much good to have power if you can't use it. If the wind is blowing at 2am and everyone is asleep, what good is it? Somehow the grid has to figure how to put all the sources together. Base load is pretty important unless you want to have black outs

The senate energy bill put the tax credit for residential solar back to 30%, it was down to 26% this year, 22% next year and then gone. I think its back to 30 % in 22 so yea for me getting 30% instead of 26%
 
walrus said:
It doesn't do much good to have power if you can't use it. If the wind is blowing at 2am and everyone is asleep, what good is it? Somehow the grid has to figure how to put all the sources together. Base load is pretty important unless you want to have black outs

The senate energy bill put the tax credit for residential solar back to 30%, it was down to 26% this year, 22% next year and then gone. I think its back to 30 % in 22 so yea for me getting 30% instead of 26%
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This is the main problem with selling the idea of clean energy to the general population...

There are complexities that they never think about (and don't want to)...
 
walrus said:
It doesn't do much good to have power if you can't use it. If the wind is blowing at 2am and everyone is asleep, what good is it? Somehow the grid has to figure how to put all the sources together. Base load is pretty important unless you want to have black outs

The senate energy bill put the tax credit for residential solar back to 30%, it was down to 26% this year, 22% next year and then gone. I think its back to 30 % in 22 so yea for me getting 30% instead of 26%
Click to expand...

You are missing the point- while you are correct at 2am when the wind isn't blowing, when it's 3pm and the wind is at 20mph, you are offsetting HC's that would be burnt to make up for that need. If the desire is to be energy independent, saving every HC you can is required. We have the flexibility to have various HC's be burnt to make up when the wind is not blowing, so using the wind when you can will make sure that you minimize the amount of HC's imported.

Do people *really* want to be energy independent, or are they just saying that to burn more HC's for the sake of burning them?
 
RaceBoarder said:
This is the main problem with selling the idea of clean energy to the general population...

There are complexities that they never think about (and don't want to)...
Click to expand...

The point that I'm trying to make is using other sources as offsets for imported HCs. Some people want to pretend that we want to be more independent (even though we already are), but instead of using all sources, they just want to "drill baby drill."

There are more reasons than being clean to use wind or solar.
 
Or we also start developing energy storage techniques. Reservoirs, flywheels, batteries, pressurized gas, etc.

Night loads will always be trickiest. But we're a nation of brilliant scientists and engineers. It's not like it's an unsolvable problem. People like sic are just intellectually lazy as fuck.
 
MichVandal said:
You are missing the point- while you are correct at 2am when the wind isn't blowing, when it's 3pm and the wind is at 20mph, you are offsetting HC's that would be burnt to make up for that need. If the desire is to be energy independent, saving every HC you can is required. We have the flexibility to have various HC's be burnt to make up when the wind is not blowing, so using the wind when you can will make sure that you minimize the amount of HC's imported.

Do people *really* want to be energy independent, or are they just saying that to burn more HC's for the sake of burning them?
Click to expand...

At the moment baseload just can't be turned off and on because a gust of wind came up, thats the real point and the big issue with the grid and renewables.
 
walrus said:
At the moment baseload just can't be turned off and on because a gust of wind came up, thats the real point and the big issue with the grid and renewables.
Click to expand...

You do realize that wind farms are put into locations where the wind is pretty consistent, right? They are not going just anywhere.

Again, I don't disagree that the variability is an issue. But if people *really* want independence, well, wind and solar must be part of it. Both can reasonably be predicted at their respective locations, so CNG plants can throttle pretty well. You make it sound as if there's not many decades of wind power, and we are just beginners....

Whatever it takes to not import a barrel of oil has to be part of the system, else people that claim to want it are just full of it.
 
Kepler said:
This is impressive, if it happens, which I'll believe when it happens.

What did we give Manchin?
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WASHINGTON — In a twist of fate, Congress is suddenly poised to pass the most ambitious climate bill in U.S. history, largely written by a senator from a coal state who became a millionaire from his family coal business and who has taken more campaign cash from the oil and gas industry than any of his colleagues have.

That senator, Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., managed to win several major concessions for the fossil fuel industry in the $369 billion climate and energy package, which was made public on Wednesday by Senate Democrats. Manchin’s vote is critical in the evenly divided chamber because no Republicans support the bill.

The measure requires the federal government to auction off more public lands and waters for oil drilling. It expands tax credits for carbon capture technology that could allow coal or gas-burning power plants to keep operating with lower emissions. Manchin also secured a promise from Democratic leaders to vote on a separate measure to speed up the process of issuing permits for energy infrastructure, potentially smoothing the way for projects like a natural gas pipeline in West Virginia.
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https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...-got-drilling/

Wonder what they'll have to give Sinema?
 
MichVandal said:
You do realize that wind farms are put into locations where the wind is pretty consistent, right? They are not going just anywhere.

Again, I don't disagree that the variability is an issue. But if people *really* want independence, well, wind and solar must be part of it. Both can reasonably be predicted at their respective locations, so CNG plants can throttle pretty well. You make it sound as if there's not many decades of wind power, and we are just beginners....

Whatever it takes to not import a barrel of oil has to be part of the system, else people that claim to want it are just full of it.
Click to expand...

There are lots of wind farms in Maine, some of which I see on a regular basis. Lots of times the windmills are stationary so either they have the brakes on or there isn't enough wind to turn the blades or possibly they don't need the power?

Maine has a huge windmill project in the Gulf Of Maine, 600 foot towers floating like a drill rig with turbines on top. 600 foot towers dwarf anything we have on land. Lots of controversy about it but if you want consistent wind, the Gulf is where you will find it.
 
MichVandal said:
You do realize that wind farms are put into locations where the wind is pretty consistent, right? They are not going just anywhere.

Again, I don't disagree that the variability is an issue. But if people *really* want independence, well, wind and solar must be part of it. Both can reasonably be predicted at their respective locations, so CNG plants can throttle pretty well. You make it sound as if there's not many decades of wind power, and we are just beginners....

Whatever it takes to not import a barrel of oil has to be part of the system, else people that claim to want it are just full of it.
Click to expand...

Any discussion of moving away from fossil fuels that doesn't include nuclear is incomplete.

Greener that fossil fuels, more reliable than wind and solar, but some ideologues just can't cope ...
 
Chuck Murray said:
Any discussion of moving away from fossil fuels that doesn't include nuclear is incomplete.

Greener that fossil fuels, more reliable than wind and solar, but some ideologues just can't cope ...
Click to expand...

I don't disagree about that at all. For all of the want of energy independence, all other sources are needed. But there's a lot more visible opposition to wind and solar than nuclear.

Can't rely on "drill baby drill" to not import HCs.
 
Nuclear or no nuclear is pointless. The ship has sailed. We have destroyed the planet. Everyone enjoy giving buckets of money to the latest disaster in a state that votes for Fossil Fuels.
 
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