As I said before how many EO's in the past were ceremonial and how many were "legislative"?
Every time this (and every) President threatens to (and does) end run Congress leads closer to government by diktat.
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2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
- Thread starter joecct
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Every time this (and every) President threatens to (and does) end run Congress leads closer to government by diktat.
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
I hate to interrupt a good paranoid conspiracy, but wouldn't the courts be the judge of that? Not that I'd mind if you guys got sent off to a gulag
but I'm fairly certain that would be found as an illegal exercise of Presidential power. 
I hate to interrupt a good paranoid conspiracy, but wouldn't the courts be the judge of that? Not that I'd mind if you guys got sent off to a gulag
but I'm fairly certain that would be found as an illegal exercise of Presidential power. 
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Ideally, but the Courts are starting to look more and more political. Would you trust a Court with a majority of GOP appointees to adjudicate whether an action by a GOP president exceeded the authority of his office? I wouldn't.
I think the more we place procedural limits on what presidents can do, the more we protect ourselves from the president becoming a de facto potentate. We came so close to that after 9/11, with an executive which did not recognize any rightful limits on its actions, a cowardly legislature terrified to appear "soft on terror," and a highly compliant Court system. The more we can hem in the president with explicit limits, the better, since all presidents always lean towards self-justification of any action not explicitly prohibited in law.
Whether you think the biggest threats of dictatorship come from the right or the left, the threats do come, periodically, and public opinion is no protection of liberty in times of danger, real or imagined. Because our system is adversarial, limits on a particular office will only ever be introduced by the opposing party, and the motives will always include the most cynical and crass partisanship. That in itself does not invalidate an action -- for example, the impeachment of Nixon would have been primarily driven by Democratic members, and it would have been in part partisan, but it would still have had other valid reasons. The lawsuit against Obama doesn't stand up to that test -- it's just rage-inducement to get feet to the polls (and in that regard it may backfire).
Until Congress is willing to act responsibly, the executive will continue to be given a long leash, since his expansive powers are so useful to Congress as an excuse to pass the hot potato.
Ideally, but the Courts are starting to look more and more political. Would you trust a Court with a majority of GOP appointees to adjudicate whether an action by a GOP president exceeded the authority of his office? I wouldn't.
I think the more we place procedural limits on what presidents can do, the more we protect ourselves from the president becoming a de facto potentate. We came so close to that after 9/11, with an executive which did not recognize any rightful limits on its actions, a cowardly legislature terrified to appear "soft on terror," and a highly compliant Court system. The more we can hem in the president with explicit limits, the better, since all presidents always lean towards self-justification of any action not explicitly prohibited in law.
Whether you think the biggest threats of dictatorship come from the right or the left, the threats do come, periodically, and public opinion is no protection of liberty in times of danger, real or imagined. Because our system is adversarial, limits on a particular office will only ever be introduced by the opposing party, and the motives will always include the most cynical and crass partisanship. That in itself does not invalidate an action -- for example, the impeachment of Nixon would have been primarily driven by Democratic members, and it would have been in part partisan, but it would still have had other valid reasons. The lawsuit against Obama doesn't stand up to that test -- it's just rage-inducement to get feet to the polls (and in that regard it may backfire).
Until Congress is willing to act responsibly, the executive will continue to be given a long leash, since his expansive powers are so useful to Congress as an excuse to pass the hot potato.
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Kep again with you channelling Fishy. Nixon decided to cut bait when the GOP itself told him they could no longer support him and it was time to go. Your analogy using Watergate makes no sense.
Also, seeing as a GOP appointed SCOTUS did indeed do the very thing you think they wouldn't, I do believe if a President started taking on powers above what's Constitutional they'd be more than happy to step in, and would enjoy doing so whether or not the Prez was a Dem or a Gooper.
Believe it or not Kep, the system works almost in spite of everything else.
Kep again with you channelling Fishy. Nixon decided to cut bait when the GOP itself told him they could no longer support him and it was time to go. Your analogy using Watergate makes no sense.
Also, seeing as a GOP appointed SCOTUS did indeed do the very thing you think they wouldn't, I do believe if a President started taking on powers above what's Constitutional they'd be more than happy to step in, and would enjoy doing so whether or not the Prez was a Dem or a Gooper.
Believe it or not Kep, the system works almost in spite of everything else.
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Okay, maybe Obama has used executive orders less frequently than the last three Republican presidents, but his executive orders are worse. Classic confirmation bias. We all deal with confirmation bias, but when it comes to BOB, Joecct and others' symptoms spike.
In fact, according to the Peters study, Obama has averaged fewer executive orders per year than any Republican president since Chester Arthur was elected in 1881. Teddy Roosevelt used the power four times as frequently.
Okay, maybe Obama has used executive orders less frequently than the last three Republican presidents, but his executive orders are worse. Classic confirmation bias. We all deal with confirmation bias, but when it comes to BOB, Joecct and others' symptoms spike.
In fact, according to the Peters study, Obama has averaged fewer executive orders per year than any Republican president since Chester Arthur was elected in 1881. Teddy Roosevelt used the power four times as frequently.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Do you honestly believe a GOP House would have moved the bill to impeach out of the Judiciary Committee? Nixon resigned because Goldwater told him even he couldn't resist the public pressure. That was after 2 years of investigation by Nixon opponents in the press and Congress. They were the ones who kept the spotlight on Nixon's crimes.
Reverse the situation and, well, you don't even need to guess, you get Iran-Contra. Reagan walks because the GOP has a 10-seat advantage in the Senate, and the southern Dems in the House are already starting to tumble to the realization that the Southern Strategy has worked and their days are numbered. He has a compliant legislature that is unwilling to challenge him, he is able to appoint the Tower Commission that whitewashes the situation, and the press doesn't have the same animus that 30 years of having to deal with the Dickster built up. Move the 70's press and Congress to 1986 and Reagan is impeached.
Do you honestly believe a GOP House would have moved the bill to impeach out of the Judiciary Committee? Nixon resigned because Goldwater told him even he couldn't resist the public pressure. That was after 2 years of investigation by Nixon opponents in the press and Congress. They were the ones who kept the spotlight on Nixon's crimes.
Reverse the situation and, well, you don't even need to guess, you get Iran-Contra. Reagan walks because the GOP has a 10-seat advantage in the Senate, and the southern Dems in the House are already starting to tumble to the realization that the Southern Strategy has worked and their days are numbered. He has a compliant legislature that is unwilling to challenge him, he is able to appoint the Tower Commission that whitewashes the situation, and the press doesn't have the same animus that 30 years of having to deal with the Dickster built up. Move the 70's press and Congress to 1986 and Reagan is impeached.
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Kep I'm fairly certain the Dems had the Senate majority during the Iran-Contra hearings as they retook the Senate in '86 and those hearings were in '87 maybe IIRC....
Kep I'm fairly certain the Dems had the Senate majority during the Iran-Contra hearings as they retook the Senate in '86 and those hearings were in '87 maybe IIRC....
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Socialist, yes. Kenyan, yes. Muslim, yes. Scotsman, no.
Socialist, yes. Kenyan, yes. Muslim, yes. Scotsman, no.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
You are correct, they did. And although that doesn't entirely invalidate my argument, it does weaken it.
You are correct, they did. And although that doesn't entirely invalidate my argument, it does weaken it.
You need 67 votes to convict. They didn't have the votes then and the votes did not exist in the Clinton fiasco.
If you don't have the votes - and the Radical Republicans thought they did, don't bother impeaching.
P
Priceless
Guest
Dennis Hastert would like a word with you.
Well duh!
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Depends why you're impeaching. The GOP seems to think yammering about impeaching a Dem president is good for getting their base psyched and contributing. Considering how that went with Clinton, you'd think they would have learned their lesson, but apparently not.
Then again, we're talking about people with their heads rammed so far up their own rectums that they're talking about another shutdown as a viable political strategy. The derp is strong in these ones.
Depends why you're impeaching. The GOP seems to think yammering about impeaching a Dem president is good for getting their base psyched and contributing. Considering how that went with Clinton, you'd think they would have learned their lesson, but apparently not.
Then again, we're talking about people with their heads rammed so far up their own rectums that they're talking about another shutdown as a viable political strategy. The derp is strong in these ones.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
Yeah, but it's been the Dems that have been on the megaphones saying the Reps want to impeach more than the Reps want to impeach.
I can't remember where I saw it but I remember a graph of either news station use of the word "impeach" or politician use of the word, but I remember the left-leaners were well above the derp-peddlers.
Yeah, but it's been the Dems that have been on the megaphones saying the Reps want to impeach more than the Reps want to impeach.
I can't remember where I saw it but I remember a graph of either news station use of the word "impeach" or politician use of the word, but I remember the left-leaners were well above the derp-peddlers.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
One of the more embarrassing things for the RNC was, the last few weeks, whenever they would come out and say "impeachment is a Democratic plant," the very next story would be about some prominent Republican braying for impeachment. Even for their captive audience that nods along to everything the Echo Chamber tells them to think, that must have been a hard sell.
Yeah, but it's been the Dems that have been on the megaphones saying the Reps want to impeach more than the Reps want to impeach.
One of the more embarrassing things for the RNC was, the last few weeks, whenever they would come out and say "impeachment is a Democratic plant," the very next story would be about some prominent Republican braying for impeachment. Even for their captive audience that nods along to everything the Echo Chamber tells them to think, that must have been a hard sell.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
It's not a plant, it's just the Dems taking hold of some the derpiest derp that ever came out of that party and running with it. Because it's a smart play. Every time the word 'impeachment' is used, middle-of-the-road voters shift away from the Reps.
It's not a plant, it's just the Dems taking hold of some the derpiest derp that ever came out of that party and running with it. Because it's a smart play. Every time the word 'impeachment' is used, middle-of-the-road voters shift away from the Reps.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line
The Dems are using it, but the GOP is handing it to them on a silver platter. The GOP finds itself behind its usual 8 ball: they use the Echo Chamber as their surrogates to say all sorts of horrific and stupid things. That makes the herpa-derps angry-happy and gets them writing checks. So far, so good. But then when the GOP leadership is asked about this stuff, they use weasel words coded to say "I'm shocked, shocked!" to the middle while winking at the base. This satisfies nobody, and the middle rightly concludes the tail is wagging the dog: the fringe is dictating GOP policy.
This used to be fun for the GOP because they could govern according to the dictates of their corporate donors while sprinkling just enough crazy on the airwaves to ensure their big personal paydays in notoriety, book deals, the shout show circuit, etc. Now the GOP pie is shrinking and their worlds are colliding. They can't just repudiate the crazies because they're scared out of their wits of being primaried. They can't go full frontal crazy and expect to win any race bigger than Dogpatch. So they contradict themselves all over the place and then screech about "media bias" when they're nailed.
It aint working.
The Dems are using it, but the GOP is handing it to them on a silver platter. The GOP finds itself behind its usual 8 ball: they use the Echo Chamber as their surrogates to say all sorts of horrific and stupid things. That makes the herpa-derps angry-happy and gets them writing checks. So far, so good. But then when the GOP leadership is asked about this stuff, they use weasel words coded to say "I'm shocked, shocked!" to the middle while winking at the base. This satisfies nobody, and the middle rightly concludes the tail is wagging the dog: the fringe is dictating GOP policy.
This used to be fun for the GOP because they could govern according to the dictates of their corporate donors while sprinkling just enough crazy on the airwaves to ensure their big personal paydays in notoriety, book deals, the shout show circuit, etc. Now the GOP pie is shrinking and their worlds are colliding. They can't just repudiate the crazies because they're scared out of their wits of being primaried. They can't go full frontal crazy and expect to win any race bigger than Dogpatch. So they contradict themselves all over the place and then screech about "media bias" when they're nailed.
It aint working.
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