Jimjamesak
Already insane, UAA making it worse
Out of curiosity, why not?
USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
- Thread starter joecct
- Start date
- Status
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
because WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!
because WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p>**** liberal media! <a href="http://t.co/Xfj8T0k7EU">pic.twitter.com/Xfj8T0k7EU</a></p>— John Forsyth (@blackbear93) <a href="https://twitter.com/blackbear93/status/549625012937039872">December 29, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p>**** liberal media! <a href="http://t.co/Xfj8T0k7EU">pic.twitter.com/Xfj8T0k7EU</a></p>— John Forsyth (@blackbear93) <a href="https://twitter.com/blackbear93/status/549625012937039872">December 29, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
I never knew my outgoing rep was so popular with the media.
I never knew my outgoing rep was so popular with the media.
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
One argument I have heard (and can entertain for a bit) is that much of our prefrontal cortex continues to develop in our late teens and early twenties. Our prefrontal cortex is a large part on what makes us "human" and is, in part, the source of our neurological basis for our conscience. Ingesting a neurotoxin like alcohol inhibits neurogenesis (the dividing and differentiating of neural stem cells into integrated neurons) which may impair full potential of development.
Not that I avoided drinking copious amounts of alcohol in my late teens and early twenties. Nor do I think the legal drinking age has the majority of the impact on who drinks and who doesn't. Nor do I think (or research has shown) that countries that allow earlier legal drinking have noticeable differences in prefrontal cortex development that could be remotely associated with alcohol intake.
One argument I have heard (and can entertain for a bit) is that much of our prefrontal cortex continues to develop in our late teens and early twenties. Our prefrontal cortex is a large part on what makes us "human" and is, in part, the source of our neurological basis for our conscience. Ingesting a neurotoxin like alcohol inhibits neurogenesis (the dividing and differentiating of neural stem cells into integrated neurons) which may impair full potential of development.
Not that I avoided drinking copious amounts of alcohol in my late teens and early twenties. Nor do I think the legal drinking age has the majority of the impact on who drinks and who doesn't. Nor do I think (or research has shown) that countries that allow earlier legal drinking have noticeable differences in prefrontal cortex development that could be remotely associated with alcohol intake.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
Thing is, the "forbidden fruit" aspect of alcohol in the US may lead to greater alcohol consumption among teens. I'm just a Caveman. I fell in some ice and later got thawed out by your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me. But I was a legal 18-year old drinker and the environment was: (1) you got carded if you were male, (2) you got carded if you were female and unattractive or female and attractive and looked under 12. And if you got carded and couldn't get into the bar then you went to a party at a private house and got wheeled home in a shopping cart. In other words, it was exactly the same as now.
Eliminate the drinking age and in a generation the age mystique of drinking will die off. Excessive drinking will become a class marker.
Thing is, the "forbidden fruit" aspect of alcohol in the US may lead to greater alcohol consumption among teens. I'm just a Caveman. I fell in some ice and later got thawed out by your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me. But I was a legal 18-year old drinker and the environment was: (1) you got carded if you were male, (2) you got carded if you were female and unattractive or female and attractive and looked under 12. And if you got carded and couldn't get into the bar then you went to a party at a private house and got wheeled home in a shopping cart. In other words, it was exactly the same as now.
Eliminate the drinking age and in a generation the age mystique of drinking will die off. Excessive drinking will become a class marker.
Jimjamesak
Already insane, UAA making it worse
The major difference being that drunk driving nowadays is prosecuted with more than a "don't let me see you out here again."
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
That's true. If you got a local cop in my town you got a talking to and no record unless you had the bad luck to be out with his daughter.
That's true. If you got a local cop in my town you got a talking to and no record unless you had the bad luck to be out with his daughter.
Jimjamesak
Already insane, UAA making it worse
Yeah MADD likes to talk about how the 21 drinking age has lowered drunk driving rates and I don't buy it. It's probably a factor but it's nowhere near the factors of actual enforcement and prevention measures taken.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
I've heard the counter-argument that raising the drinking age increased the mileage kids had to drive after they had been drinking (it being impossible for them just to buy at the local liquor store and drink at home), thus increasing drunk driving. I haven't looked at it for 20+ years, but I remember thinking at the time the data compiled by both sides was ridiculously cherry-picked. Though if I had to choose between agendas, I'd pick MADD over the liquor lobby every day and twice on Sundays.
I've heard the counter-argument that raising the drinking age increased the mileage kids had to drive after they had been drinking (it being impossible for them just to buy at the local liquor store and drink at home), thus increasing drunk driving. I haven't looked at it for 20+ years, but I remember thinking at the time the data compiled by both sides was ridiculously cherry-picked. Though if I had to choose between agendas, I'd pick MADD over the liquor lobby every day and twice on Sundays.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Pretty much this.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
Lowering the drinking age could open it up to the point it would be less $3xy (I can't believe what I tried to type is blocked) to indulge, although I admit that's just a theory. Is there a greater rate of alcoholism in Europe or SE Asia for instance? Half the fun of going to a h.s. party was getting drunk, the other half was hiding it from your parents and teachers - even I knew that and I hardly touched alcohol in h.s. Has the WOD done anything to curb marijuana usage the last 30 years? I think usage may actually be down the past decade but from what I've gathered from a nephew it wasn't due to supply. I still think it starts at home regardless of the limit. My family was always very open about drinking, but I never saw my parents get wasted or anyone else at a family function for that matter. Partly why the Drunk Uncle bit on SNL doesn't remotely resonate with me.
Lowering the drinking age could open it up to the point it would be less $3xy (I can't believe what I tried to type is blocked) to indulge, although I admit that's just a theory. Is there a greater rate of alcoholism in Europe or SE Asia for instance? Half the fun of going to a h.s. party was getting drunk, the other half was hiding it from your parents and teachers - even I knew that and I hardly touched alcohol in h.s. Has the WOD done anything to curb marijuana usage the last 30 years? I think usage may actually be down the past decade but from what I've gathered from a nephew it wasn't due to supply. I still think it starts at home regardless of the limit. My family was always very open about drinking, but I never saw my parents get wasted or anyone else at a family function for that matter. Partly why the Drunk Uncle bit on SNL doesn't remotely resonate with me.
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
That argument is a load (not picking on you, just the argument) and a classic case of grasping to find any sort of straw that bolsters one's preconceived notions about drinking. I guess European prefrontal cortexes must develop earlier, since they can start having beer or wine at restaurants at 16, and can go to bars at 18....
That argument is a load (not picking on you, just the argument) and a classic case of grasping to find any sort of straw that bolsters one's preconceived notions about drinking. I guess European prefrontal cortexes must develop earlier, since they can start having beer or wine at restaurants at 16, and can go to bars at 18....
P
Priceless
Guest
No. Europeans aren't real people.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
I'm not sure what you are criticizing in the argument. Brains genuinely are not fully developed until the mid-20s:
Alcohol in sufficient doses does impede brain development:
By the way, I love the term "adolescent rats."
So, anyway, the weakness in the argument seems to come down to what constitutes excessive dosage. I think I see where you're coming from and I'm sympathetic, but I do not think a broadside attack on the argument is justified or effective. I think we should be concentrating on the idea of normalizing responsible social drinking to strip it of its "Animal House" associations.
(Jesus, I feel old trying to make these arguments, like a 50's J. Edgar Hoover character sagely discussing "our troubled youth.")
Anyway, I think this is exactly like young adult sex: (1) Kids have always, are, and will always do it. The likelihood of underage participation is a constant and is nearly, if not actually, 100%. (2) Prohibition is naive, ineffective, and driven by cultural lies that have nothing to do with the target issue. (3) The activity in and of itself is not harmful, but the legal and cultural structures surrounding it make it far more likely to be secretive and uninformed. (4) The solution is for everybody to grow up, face facts, get over their silly Disneyfied notions of teens, and make it as safe, normal, and informed as possible. (5) A certain percentage of kids will still screw themselves up, but they would have anyway. And finally, (6) None of this will ever happen because it's too easy for alarmists and posturing politicians to play the "all that's needed is a firm hand and good, Christian values" nonsense and just billow out the clouds of ignorance again, because parents are terrified and frightened people act stupidly and want desperately to believe in fairies and rainbows.
I'm not sure what you are criticizing in the argument. Brains genuinely are not fully developed until the mid-20s:
Alcohol in sufficient doses does impede brain development:
By the way, I love the term "adolescent rats."
So, anyway, the weakness in the argument seems to come down to what constitutes excessive dosage. I think I see where you're coming from and I'm sympathetic, but I do not think a broadside attack on the argument is justified or effective. I think we should be concentrating on the idea of normalizing responsible social drinking to strip it of its "Animal House" associations.
(Jesus, I feel old trying to make these arguments, like a 50's J. Edgar Hoover character sagely discussing "our troubled youth.")
Anyway, I think this is exactly like young adult sex: (1) Kids have always, are, and will always do it. The likelihood of underage participation is a constant and is nearly, if not actually, 100%. (2) Prohibition is naive, ineffective, and driven by cultural lies that have nothing to do with the target issue. (3) The activity in and of itself is not harmful, but the legal and cultural structures surrounding it make it far more likely to be secretive and uninformed. (4) The solution is for everybody to grow up, face facts, get over their silly Disneyfied notions of teens, and make it as safe, normal, and informed as possible. (5) A certain percentage of kids will still screw themselves up, but they would have anyway. And finally, (6) None of this will ever happen because it's too easy for alarmists and posturing politicians to play the "all that's needed is a firm hand and good, Christian values" nonsense and just billow out the clouds of ignorance again, because parents are terrified and frightened people act stupidly and want desperately to believe in fairies and rainbows.
Last edited:
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
I was when I was 18-19-20, but now I don't want to deal with little bahstids puking all over the place while I'm trying to walk down the sidewalk on a weekend night without the joy of seeing them arrested! In short, I'm the most honest poster out here, because I'm a self centered jerk and I'm not afraid to admit it!!! 
I was when I was 18-19-20, but now I don't want to deal with little bahstids puking all over the place while I'm trying to walk down the sidewalk on a weekend night without the joy of seeing them arrested! In short, I'm the most honest poster out here, because I'm a self centered jerk and I'm not afraid to admit it!!!
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck
Kep did a nice job covering it. As with many things, there is a difference and a disconnect between the data and the pragmatic solutions. We know alcohol is neurotoxic, even at relatively low doses. In a former life, I did research in hippocampal neurogenesis and both short term cell dividing and long term neuronal integration are very easily inhibited by alcohol. That data is straightforward and as a scientist, that is usually where I stop talking.
The pragmatic solution is to try and limit the amount of alcohol consumed by adolescents. I will not pretend I know enough about the multitude of factors going into that argument.
Not trying to open a can of worms but I find another example of this is drinking in pregnancy. All things equal, abstinence is a better policy than the "1 drink a day" that can frequently be the recommendation. However, it is important to note that the "1 drink a day" is a pragmatic solution that may (in some people) reduce stress or hold of the person from doing things much more deleterious.
Kep did a nice job covering it. As with many things, there is a difference and a disconnect between the data and the pragmatic solutions. We know alcohol is neurotoxic, even at relatively low doses. In a former life, I did research in hippocampal neurogenesis and both short term cell dividing and long term neuronal integration are very easily inhibited by alcohol. That data is straightforward and as a scientist, that is usually where I stop talking.
The pragmatic solution is to try and limit the amount of alcohol consumed by adolescents. I will not pretend I know enough about the multitude of factors going into that argument.
Not trying to open a can of worms but I find another example of this is drinking in pregnancy. All things equal, abstinence is a better policy than the "1 drink a day" that can frequently be the recommendation. However, it is important to note that the "1 drink a day" is a pragmatic solution that may (in some people) reduce stress or hold of the person from doing things much more deleterious.
- Status