2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

[mookie1995]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

HE this year had:
- National coach of the year
- National player of the year
- National rookie of the year
- National goalie of the year
- Two FF teams
- One NCG team

There's definitely a gap between HE and the NCHC, and there's some tweaks some programs need to make but the gap is not nearly as large as you make it seem.

no no.. let's count all the umich titles won in 1950 throw in mtu too

go west!!

 

[ThePowerConference]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

As someone who has been going to UMD games since the early 80's as a little kid, I don't know how we've gotten to where we are today. There were some dark years between 1986, 1993, and 2003-2004, until we finally got it going in 2009. Personally, first one was surreal and last year was really a validation for the program, but last night was just enjoying the ride. We are going to lose some guys early and Sandelin deserves a shot at the NHL, so who knows where it all goes from here. Back to my original question I've thought about how we went from being a second tier program and one described by my Gopher friends as their ugly stepchild, to now the best program in the nation and this is what I have as factors:
1. The obvious Sandelin figuring it out. There were some valleys in his tenure and I think the lowest was pulling scholarships from guys and still feel it was a bad look.
2. A shift towards Minnesota kids and not just older Canadian players who didn't develop much from their freshman year.
3. Amsoil Arena feels like a big time venue as opposed to the DECC.
4. The biggest factor in my opinion the development of the Hermantown program. That school has been the gift that has just kept on giving us top tier talent.

I hope St. Cloud and Mankato wins one soon!

Its pretty obvious that they are the most successful program in the past decade.
1953 - 2009 (65 years): 3 conference titles, 3 conference tournament titles, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 NCAA runner up, 2 frozen fours, 4 hobey bakers
2009 - 2019 (10 years): 3 conference tournament titles (1 wcha, 2 nchc), 9 NCAA appearances, 4 frozen fours, 3 NCAA championships, 1 NCAA runner up, 1 hobey baker

So what happened? The most glaring stat in my opinion is the 9 NCAA tournaments in the last decade compared to only 5 in the previous 65 years. I think the new arena built in 2010 has helped immensely. The DECC was a wreck. AMSOIL Arena is a new, modern arena that recruits want to play in. You could also argue that their move from the WCHA to the NCHC in 2013 has helped too. The old WCHA was obviously a great conference but it had doormat teams every year. The NCHC doesn't have annual doormat teams. So maybe that move forced them to get better. Just my 2 cents.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Its pretty obvious that they are the most successful program in the past decade.
1953 - 2009 (65 years): 3 conference titles, 3 conference tournament titles, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 NCAA runner up, 2 frozen fours, 4 hobey bakers
2009 - 2019 (10 years): 3 conference tournament titles (1 wcha, 2 nchc), 9 NCAA appearances, 4 frozen fours, 3 NCAA championships, 1 NCAA runner up, 1 hobey baker

So what happened? The most glaring stat in my opinion is the 9 NCAA tournaments in the last decade compared to only 5 in the previous 65 years. I think the new arena built in 2010 has helped immensely. The DECC was a wreck. AMSOIL Arena is a new, modern arena that recruits want to play in. You could also argue that their move from the WCHA to the NCHC in 2013 has helped too. The old WCHA was obviously a great conference but it had doormat teams every year. The NCHC doesn't have annual doormat teams. So maybe that move forced them to get better. Just my 2 cents.

Lol. The old WCHA was the best conference in the nation year after year. If you don’t think there are doormats, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

 

[ThePowerConference]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Anchorage, Michigan Tech, and even Duluth were doormats in that conference for years and years. Heck, Anchorage and Michigan Tech are STILL doormats in the new WCHA and its clearly worse than it was prior to 2013.

 

[Jaws]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Had to chuckle at the headline on uscho about it being too soon to determine low attendance at frozen four. Prices are just too high, especially if you are flying in and booking a hotel room. 2003 hangover. Don't know how much has changed in Downtown Buffalo, but in 2003 there was not much happening. Our two best meals during the weekend were out in the burbs near our hotel. They knew. Why else would I have received about 50 emails and 10 phone calls urging me to get my tickets.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

I honestly didn’t have a problem with Buffalo. We had a great time. Hell, I couldn’t even drink this week and I still had fun. (Thankfully my self-imposes exile ends today and when I get home my GF and I can enjoy a glass from of one of the bottles of wine I picked up.)

We’re planning a return trip outside of college hockey. The vineyards just inside Canada would make for a fantastic trip. The wines I got a tiny sip of were all tremendous. We didn’t get to do much of the falls since it was iced over. A return trip would definitely include that.

I thought the wings were a massive letdown. But then again, I live five minutes away from D-spot so it’s going to be an uphill battle. The best we got were actually in Toronto so *

 

[Jaws]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

I'm glad that you had a good trip and enjoyed the city. A lot can change in 16 years. I didn't hate the city. Saw the falls. We had a good time. Just thought the downtown area was kind of dull at that time.

 

[The Zlax45]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

I honestly didn’t have a problem with Buffalo. We had a great time. Hell, I couldn’t even drink this week and I still had fun. (Thankfully my self-imposes exile ends today and when I get home my GF and I can enjoy a glass from of one of the bottles of wine I picked up.)

We’re planning a return trip outside of college hockey. The vineyards just inside Canada would make for a fantastic trip. The wines I got a tiny sip of were all tremendous. We didn’t get to do much of the falls since it was iced over. A return trip would definitely include that.

I thought the wings were a massive letdown. But then again, I live five minutes away from D-spot so it’s going to be an uphill battle. The best we got were actually in Toronto so ��*

We stayed in the Burbs and had great local food in the burbs at the local establishments (no national chains), parking was cheap when compared to the Northeast, and the people were great. We drove up to Toronto and stopped at the falls on the way up (20 Canadian to park in Canada to look at waterfalls? A little nuts). The Canadian wine country does look interesting if you are into that....

I liked the arena and the couple of bars around the arena.

 

[Biddco]

Its pretty obvious that they are the most successful program in the past decade.
1953 - 2009 (65 years): 3 conference titles, 3 conference tournament titles, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 NCAA runner up, 2 frozen fours, 4 hobey bakers
2009 - 2019 (10 years): 3 conference tournament titles (1 wcha, 2 nchc), 9 NCAA appearances, 4 frozen fours, 3 NCAA championships, 1 NCAA runner up, 1 hobey baker

So what happened? The most glaring stat in my opinion is the 9 NCAA tournaments in the last decade compared to only 5 in the previous 65 years. I think the new arena built in 2010 has helped immensely. The DECC was a wreck. AMSOIL Arena is a new, modern arena that recruits want to play in. You could also argue that their move from the WCHA to the NCHC in 2013 has helped too. The old WCHA was obviously a great conference but it had doormat teams every year. The NCHC doesn't have annual doormat teams. So maybe that move forced them to get better. Just my 2 cents.

I'm gonna borrow this stat for Twitter if that's okay.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Not seeing a higher trend in MN kids skipping college than at any time in recent past. Some data to consider:

-Draft picks playing in college hockey and comparisons the past 20 years
-# of players in the NHL with college experience, average # of seasons played for the same time period
-Etc.

As for it being a "dead puck" era they really need to consider reducing the size of the goalie equipment. Would be curious to see average # of goals scored per game the past 10 years as well to validate if scoring is trending downward.

[edit]

Sorry for the lack of formatting but if teams are actually trending older are they finding more success because of it?:

Rank Team Ave Age PWR KRACH
1 Alaska-Anchorage 22y 9m 60 60
2 Canisius 22y 8m 54 54
3 Minnesota State 22y 7m 3 3
4 American Int'l 22y 7m 31 40
5 Army 22y 6m 52 56
6 Bemidji State 22y 5m 35 35
7 Air Force 22y 5m 43 48
8 Sacred Heart 22y 5m 40 49
9 Alabama-Huntsville 22y 5m 58 57
10 Mercyhurst 22y 4m 53 55
11 Northern Michigan 22y 3m 24 27
12 RIT 22y 3m 36 46
13 Nebraska-Omaha 22y 3m 47 37
14 Michigan Tech 22y 2m 42 42
15 Lake Superior 22y 2m 22 21
16 Robert Morris 22y 2m 49 52
17 Ferris State 22y 2m 57 53
18 Bentley 22y 2m 39 47
19 Maine 22y 2m 30 30
20 Colgate 22y 2m 50 45
21 Merrimack 22y 1m 55 51
22 Ohio State 22y 1m 9 7
23 Alaska 22y 1m 48 43
24 Arizona State 22y 1m 10 15
25 Dartmouth 22y 0m 37 38
26 Brown 22y 0m 25 28
27 Rensselaer 21y 11m 51 44
28 Holy Cross 21y 11m 56 58
29 Colorado College 21y 11m 23 23
30 Penn State 21y 11m 16 12
31 Clarkson 21y 11m 5 9
32 Niagara 21y 11m 45 50
33 St. Cloud State 21y 11m 1 1
34 Union 21y 11m 18 20
35 Vermont 21y 11m 41 36
36 Yale 21y 10m 29 31
37 Miami 21y 10m 38 34
38 Mass.-Lowell 21y 10m 21 22
39 Bowling Green 21y 9m 15 18
40 Northeastern 21y 9m 6 6
41 Western Michigan 21y 9m 17 13
42 North Dakota 21y 6m 19 19
43 Massachusetts 21y 6m 4 4
44 Cornell 21y 6m 11 11
45 Minnesota-Duluth 21y 6m 2 2
46 Princeton 21y 5m 44 39
47 St. Lawrence 21y 5m 59 59
48 New Hampshire 21y 5m 34 33
49 Michigan State 21y 5m 32 29
50 Quinnipiac 21y 4m 7 8
51 Providence 21y 4m 14 16
52 Harvard 21y 3m 13 14
53 Minnesota 21y 3m 20 17
54 Notre Dame 21y 1m 12 10
55 Connecticut 21y 1m 46 41
56 Michigan 20y 11m 28 25
57 Denver 20y 11m 8 5
58 Boston College 20y 10m 33 32
59 Wisconsin 20y 10m 27 24
60 Boston University 20y 6m 26 26

Denver was 4th youngest, 8th in PWR and 4th in KRACH.
Quinnipiac 11th youngest, 7th and 8th.
UMD 16th, 2nd and 2nd.
Cornell 17th, 11th and 11th
UMASS 18th, 4th and 4th.

MSUM and OSU (3rd oldest and 22nd) that finished Top 10 for PWR and KRACH.

Finally leaving out MSUM the average age rank for Top 16 teams in PWR was 41st oldest out of 60 teams - in other words on the younger end of the spectrum.

That was a interesting post; nice job. Where did you dig that up?

Yeah, maybe I listened to Bucci and Melrose harp-upon the 23+ guys on UMD, but they probably don't have that right , either.

One thing I've noticed while watching D-3 for 19 years is that the 24 YO's often comprise the 1st and 2nd lines, and get much more TOI than the young guys. That might skew the average-age data in a meaningful way, or it might not.

Still, is any other NCAA sport this old, overall?

 

[Montezuma]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

I'm gonna borrow this stat for Twitter if that's okay.

These are great stats. I get the overall point and it is a good one. However, one correction needs to be made. UMD actually played in 3 Frozen Fours in the earlier period (or the equivalency as not sure when they started calling it Frozen Four). They played in back to back Frozen Fours in the mid-80's and the one in 2004 in Boston where they lost a 3-1 lead going into the third period against Denver.

 

[NorthMike]

I honestly didn’t have a problem with Buffalo. We had a great time. Hell, I couldn’t even drink this week and I still had fun. (Thankfully my self-imposes exile ends today and when I get home my GF and I can enjoy a glass from of one of the bottles of wine I picked up.)

We’re planning a return trip outside of college hockey. The vineyards just inside Canada would make for a fantastic trip. The wines I got a tiny sip of were all tremendous. We didn’t get to do much of the falls since it was iced over. A return trip would definitely include that.

I thought the wings were a massive letdown. But then again, I live five minutes away from D-spot so it’s going to be an uphill battle. The best we got wdere actually in Toronto so *

Agree, we had a great time in Buffalo.
Good food and nice folks. Had a really good beef on weck in williamsville and great wings at Gabriels Gate.
The rink is nice, just a little empty though.

 

[ecachawkeyfan]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Some of the people involved in putting this year's Frozen Four together chime in on ticket prices, etc: https://bit.ly/2GeEu5F (Buffalo News)

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

That was a interesting post; nice job. Where did you dig that up?

Yeah, maybe I listened to Bucci and Melrose harp-upon the 23+ guys on UMD, but they probably don't have that right , either.

One thing I've noticed while watching D-3 for 19 years is that the 24 YO's often comprise the 1st and 2nd lines, and get much more TOI than the young guys. That might skew the average-age data in a meaningful way, or it might not.

Still, is any other NCAA sport this old, overall?

The data came from CHN.com.

I doubt there is another sport in the NCAA in which the players are this old.

 

[CanalPark]

The data came from CHN.com.

I doubt there is another sport in the NCAA in which the players are this old.

All of the talk about older guys seemed like recycled news, especially now that Sandelin has been taking so many guys one year out of high school some with just a single season in juniors.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Some of the people involved in putting this year's Frozen Four together chime in on ticket prices, etc: https://bit.ly/2GeEu5F (Buffalo News)

I have been tracking Frozen Four ticket prices going back to the seventies (with a lot of gaps) and for every year since 1990, except for last year, which I overlooked (If anyone has those prices please send them to me so I can up date my spreadsheet). Corrections and additions of other tiered prices I may have missed are welcome, Since 1990 the top 'regular' all-season pass has increased 500%, while overall the U.S. inflation rate was 94.49% (rate from https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1990?amount=1).

I passed on buying tickets in 2010 as I refused to watch in a football field and again in 2017 and 2018 due to the rising ticket prices and the estimated travel costs. I went to Buffalo because my family wanted to go to Canada to see Niagara Falls and Toronto (which we enjoyed very much). We will likely miss Detroit and Pittsburgh is still up in the air, but we plan to attend Boston as it involves no travel costs.

Sean

 

[ThePowerConference]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

These are great stats. I get the overall point and it is a good one. However, one correction needs to be made. UMD actually played in 3 Frozen Fours in the earlier period (or the equivalency as not sure when they started calling it Frozen Four). They played in back to back Frozen Fours in the mid-80's and the one in 2004 in Boston where they lost a 3-1 lead going into the third period against Denver.

I knew someone would find a mistake in there somewhere.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

The tickets haven't moved because the local perception is they're overpriced, for the casual hockey fan who has no rooting interest. And this is in a town that loves its hockey, has been bereft of anything to root for by a poorly managed Sabres organization, and with a lot more fans nearby in Canada. A few years ago Buffalo hosted the World Juniors and a lot of it didn't sell out because the perception was, again, that they were overpriced.

This matches the long-term national perception, for both the regionals & the FF. I do have to say that there's never been a larger gap between the face value and the street value of the tickets. But for the most part, this wasn't Buffalo's fault. The NCAA acts like the demand for FF tickets is inelastic. It isn't.

Traffic tonight - it will back up for a bit along the 190, and it might be slow around the arena and downtown, but nothing major.

That's consistent with our experience. And upon arrival, we got $15 parking in a nearby surface lot. Traffic & Parking were non-issues.

Stuff to do around here:

As others said, if you're into art, there's the Albright Knox gallery (modern art) up Elmwood by the 198. Across the street is the Burchfield Penney gallery. The Darwin Martin House on Jewett Parkway near the zoo is a popular tourist site. Niagara Falls, of course, and there are a couple casinos in the area if that's what you're into.
Like any city these days, we have our share of breweries. There's Big Ditch downtown, Resurgence up Niagara Street, 42 North down in East Aurora (a bit of a drive), New York Beer Project up towards Lockport (another bit of a drive), Hamburg Brewing south of the city. Belt Line Brewing Company near the Larkin District just opened. Community Beer Works on the West Side. These tend to close earlier, at 11 or 12.
Buffalo is proud of its food - do this weekend right and you may drive home 10 pounds heavier. Wings are found both at bars and at pizzerias. The best are when they come right out of the fryer to your table. I've never been to Anchor Bar - it's usually for tourists. Duff's is a standard place, they have several locations but the original is in Amherst at Sheridan and Millersport. Bar Bill is a big deal down in East Aurora. Other local favorites are Nine Eleven Tavern in South Buffalo and Gabriel's Gate in Allentown.
Buffalo style pizza is somewhere between Chicago deep dish and NY thin slice. The usual best are LaNova's on the West Side, Bocce Club on Bailey Ave in Amherst, and Imperial Pizza on Abbott in South Buffalo (a Bocce clone). Santora's is pretty good too, they have one by UB North Campus and another huge operation out on Transit in East Amherst (it's yuppie heaven).
It's Lent here, which means fish fry season, so on Friday you'll find lots of that going on. Either at restaurants or as fund raisers at churches and fire halls.
Unfortunately you're going to miss Dyngus Day by a week.
Dinosaur BBQ of Syracuse opened a location downtown a few years ago, very good food.
For nightlife - there's some downtown, mostly around Chippewa Street, but that's for bachelorette parties and meat-heads. The meat-head crowd has also moved onto Allen Street, but if you're out late (bars here can stay open till 4 am, though most probably close earlier), end your night at "The Old Pink" on Allen near Elmwood. It's a 'dive of dives', and doesn't get going till after 1. Elmwood - it's kinda spread out, from Allen north to Forty Thieves, Thin Man, Thirsty Buffalo, up to Cole's (an old Buffalo favorite, good for wings and beef-on-weck too) and Mr Goodbar. Essex St Pub on the west side is pretty chill. Hamburg and East Aurora have some walkable areas, so does Williamsville (Moor Pat and the Irishman). Hertel Ave in North Buffalo has been revived, that's very walkable and plenty of bars (Mes Que for soccer, Wellington, Sterling). They've built some things around the arena downtown - 716, and the Labatt Draft House - they're part of Pegula's money making operation, it wasn't enough to just get your money in the arena. They're probably still celebrating St Patrick's Day down in South Buffalo, at places like Nine Eleven, Blackthorn, and Doc Sullivan's.
People don't drink much Bud or Miller around here, the basic beers are (Labatt) Blue or Blue Light or Molson.
Lloyd Taco and Deep South Taco, La Divina in Kenmore, for Mexican. Late night food - Mighty Taco or Jim's Steakout. Oh, or Allen Street Poutine - outstanding stuff, by a couple guys from Montreal. Ted's for grilled hot dogs. If you're willing to take a little ride, Grover's in Amherst on Transit for burgers. Red-sauce Italian food - Chef's east of downtown, and Santasiero's on Niagara St at Lafayette. Pick up some Paula's Donuts at some point, the main one is on Sheridan in Tonawanda. Beef-on-weck is roast beef on a kimmelweck roll, some of the best ones are Bar Bill's in East Aurora, Schwabel's in West Seneca, and Kelly's, another dive up Delaware in North Buffalo.
If you're looking to watch Premier League action on Saturday or Sunday morning, head to Mes Que on Hertel. They've been able to show the Beanpot for us the past couple years because the get pretty much every channel.

You can find some more ideas at stepoutbuffalo.com and https://www.buffalospree.com/Buffalo-Sprees-Best-Of-WNY/, also https://buffalonews.com/section/gusto/

Hope you all have a nice visit to our city.

Superb post, lots of great information. We personally benefited from your recommendations of New York Beer Project, Duff's & Paula's.

One unexpected pleasure: The Brooklyn Mozzarella Logs at NYBP. Cheese Sticks on Steroids. Now that's an appetizer!

As you may have gathered, we were based in the Tonawanda/Amherst Area, not far from the University of Buffalo. Outside of the hockey, we made it to both Lockport & Niagara Falls. Fine weekend. Thanks for your contributions.

 

[zman09]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Agree, we had a great time in Buffalo.
Good food and nice folks. Had a really good beef on weck in williamsville and great wings at Gabriels Gate.
The rink is nice, just a little empty though.

Glad to see some of you all had a good time. I really think we (as average sports fans) have hit the wall when it comes to ticket prices on amateur sports...or even sports in general. When people want to plan a day or weekend around an event, and have kids in tow we want to have tickets in hand well before the date. So those reports of $50-60 tix available within hours of the game on the secondary market only appeal to a handful of folks who can go at the spur of the moment.
But anyway,, maybe the FF just needs to stay near Minnesota and Massachusetts. They are bound to send one or more teams from those general areas which would keep at least some local interest.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2019 Frozen Four: NCHC vs. Hockey East

Not sure we need to (panic?) yet on the Frozen Four. Per this story linked previously: High ticket price was set during bidding for Frozen Four, organizers say

Ten previous host venues had average crowds of at least 17,806 for the Frozen Four, according to NCAA records, and the 13,624 at the Frozen Four national championship game Saturday in Buffalo was the lowest attendance for the title game since 2001.

One ticket for the two semifinal games and the national championship game cost $300 for a seat in the lower bowl, while a seat in the upper bowl cost $210-$215.

According to the NCAA, ticket prices for the 2018 Frozen Four at the Xcel Center in St. Paul, Minn., were $290 a ticket in the lower level for three games, and $175 per ticket in the upper level.

The local organizing committee that secured the bid to bring the Frozen Four to Buffalo included Pegula Sports and Entertainment and the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference, of which Canisius is a member.

The cost of tickets was also tied to the bid that the committee submitted to the NCAA in 2016 for Buffalo to serve as host. Potential tickets prices were included in Buffalo's bid to the NCAA in 2016, although the NCAA had to approve final ticket prices based on the recommendation of the local organizing committee, a spokesman said.

“I want to make sure it’s clear,” Maher said. “The ticket pricing is driven by the competitive bid. If our bid was lower, the ticket prices would have been lower, but the likelihood of getting the Frozen Four would have been even lower.”

This Maher guy sounds like a real treat and not sure he's anyone I'd want leading the post-mortem if I had hopes they'd learn anything from the experience. That said it's way too early to judge if Buffalo was a trend or an anomaly.