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2017 Women's World Championships
- Thread starter AAA Dad
- Start date
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
No, and it has nothing to do with my original question which was for an explanation of how youth hockey is managed in Canada where there are so many more players. Apparently my phasing hurt someones feelings and the whole thread went to 4311
No, and it has nothing to do with my original question which was for an explanation of how youth hockey is managed in Canada where there are so many more players. Apparently my phasing hurt someones feelings and the whole thread went to 4311
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
So, Minnesota has less than 20% of the girls registered with USA Hockey nationwide, fewer than 100% of whom play in the high school system, but this system contributes about a third of the best D1 players from the U.S. (accepting your measure for the sake of argument). And you consider this to be an indictment of the Minnesota high school approach?
As I've said before, math is harder than people think.
So, Minnesota has less than 20% of the girls registered with USA Hockey nationwide, fewer than 100% of whom play in the high school system, but this system contributes about a third of the best D1 players from the U.S. (accepting your measure for the sake of argument). And you consider this to be an indictment of the Minnesota high school approach?
As I've said before, math is harder than people think.
Leather helmet
New member
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
You're working hard here, so I'll acknowledge your point. I have made this argument before, in a different context, but I'll throw it out here: the MN model produces large numbers of very good players, but it is not so great at producing elite players. Minnesota produces about 18% of the total rosters in NCAA women's hockey, but as you say, a slightly lower percentage of the top players.
The reason seems clear to me: the MN youth programs provide high-quality development opportunities for a large number of players, and many players who would otherwise not continue playing, if the travel and expense of club hockey were factored in, are getting the opportunity to play college hockey. Players such as this are actually critical to the development of the elite players who will go on to play on the national teams, as nobody can get better if they don't have competitive teams to play against.
If, as you say, Minnesota moves to the club model for development (and I don't see the evidence for this), it would be a loss for women's hockey, as you would see possibly more elite players coming from Minnesota, but many fewer players in total. That would mean fewer NCAA teams, or degraded quality.
You're working hard here, so I'll acknowledge your point. I have made this argument before, in a different context, but I'll throw it out here: the MN model produces large numbers of very good players, but it is not so great at producing elite players. Minnesota produces about 18% of the total rosters in NCAA women's hockey, but as you say, a slightly lower percentage of the top players.
The reason seems clear to me: the MN youth programs provide high-quality development opportunities for a large number of players, and many players who would otherwise not continue playing, if the travel and expense of club hockey were factored in, are getting the opportunity to play college hockey. Players such as this are actually critical to the development of the elite players who will go on to play on the national teams, as nobody can get better if they don't have competitive teams to play against.
If, as you say, Minnesota moves to the club model for development (and I don't see the evidence for this), it would be a loss for women's hockey, as you would see possibly more elite players coming from Minnesota, but many fewer players in total. That would mean fewer NCAA teams, or degraded quality.
pokechecker
Banned
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
half your brain apparently ...
cherry picking stats from one year means nothing
1) the player you are referring to as the best incoming Gopher was not produced by the JWHL, it was merely a one year stop along the way
2) you are implying since there are 4 players that scored more points than her, there are 4 players who are even better, no need to argue this point, we can wait and see what happens next year, how they stack up against the rest
3) oooh, almost lead WCHA freshman in scoring
maybe you should have included that one JWHL alumni almost made first team All-American and almost won an NCAA championship
not almost, #1, 1st team, champions, numerous times
4) the top scoring freshman you are referring to played in the CHA, LOL The ECAC top freshman this year, where did she come from? The previous year, where did she come from? Most if not everyone here would say freshman of the year in the ECAC is more impressive.
maybe you should try again
half your brain apparently ...
cherry picking stats from one year means nothing
1) the player you are referring to as the best incoming Gopher was not produced by the JWHL, it was merely a one year stop along the way
2) you are implying since there are 4 players that scored more points than her, there are 4 players who are even better, no need to argue this point, we can wait and see what happens next year, how they stack up against the rest
3) oooh, almost lead WCHA freshman in scoring
maybe you should have included that one JWHL alumni almost made first team All-American and almost won an NCAA championshipnot almost, #1, 1st team, champions, numerous times
4) the top scoring freshman you are referring to played in the CHA, LOL The ECAC top freshman this year, where did she come from? The previous year, where did she come from? Most if not everyone here would say freshman of the year in the ECAC is more impressive.
maybe you should try again
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pokechecker
Banned
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
well, you have me convinced, a state that comprises 1% of the US population, and has 1/9th the population of Canada produces *only* 14% (that's 1/7th for the math impaired) of the top players
yup, the sky is falling
well, you have me convinced, a state that comprises 1% of the US population, and has 1/9th the population of Canada produces *only* 14% (that's 1/7th for the math impaired) of the top players
yup, the sky is falling
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
"By a wide margin Minnesota was the home state listed by the most players competing on men's and women's NCAA I hockey teams during the 2016-17 season - fair to say the US hotbed for producing college players. Louisiana topped our list of NCAA I basketball hotbeds, but is clearly not a big state for producing college hockey players."
All the statistics in that piece are about participation levels and hockey scholarship numbers - not which players are considered the most elite of the elite, or where the national team members hail from. Realistically, about 95% of the U.S. women playing D1 hockey won't go on to wear the Red, White and Blue in the World Championships or the Olympics. For the vast majority, earning that athletic scholarship - or getting accepted to a prestigious college that recruited them to play hockey - is a really big deal. And for us observers and fans of the game, it's another way to look at the "big picture" instead of just focusing on which players had the best stats in high school or juniors.
From the separate "College Hockey & Scholarship Opportunities" thread I posted earlier in the day...
"By a wide margin Minnesota was the home state listed by the most players competing on men's and women's NCAA I hockey teams during the 2016-17 season - fair to say the US hotbed for producing college players. Louisiana topped our list of NCAA I basketball hotbeds, but is clearly not a big state for producing college hockey players."
All the statistics in that piece are about participation levels and hockey scholarship numbers - not which players are considered the most elite of the elite, or where the national team members hail from. Realistically, about 95% of the U.S. women playing D1 hockey won't go on to wear the Red, White and Blue in the World Championships or the Olympics. For the vast majority, earning that athletic scholarship - or getting accepted to a prestigious college that recruited them to play hockey - is a really big deal. And for us observers and fans of the game, it's another way to look at the "big picture" instead of just focusing on which players had the best stats in high school or juniors.
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
She averaged 1.5 goals per WCHA game last year.
She averaged 1.5 goals per WCHA game last year.
pokechecker
Banned
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
and zero against top ten teams
maybe you should pick your cherries from a different tree
and zero against top ten teams
maybe you should pick your cherries from a different tree
FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
What if she stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and we gave her a mulligan on the Sconnie game?...
Whoa...Then she averages 3 goals per WHCA game!
What if she stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and we gave her a mulligan on the Sconnie game?...
Whoa...Then she averages 3 goals per WHCA game!
pokechecker
Banned
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
being open minded, I have given some thought and now realize Eastfan1 and HockeyEast33 are correct.
UND dropped hockey 'cuz they know the supply of MN players is going down the shidder, in fact hockey is dying across the midwest, and the entire conference will be lucky to win more than a couple of non-conference games a year
UND is ahead of the game, they are getting out early to avoid the embarrassment
being open minded, I have given some thought and now realize Eastfan1 and HockeyEast33 are correct.
UND dropped hockey 'cuz they know the supply of MN players is going down the shidder, in fact hockey is dying across the midwest, and the entire conference will be lucky to win more than a couple of non-conference games a year
UND is ahead of the game, they are getting out early to avoid the embarrassment
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
I agree. And ending the pipeline of mythical Minnesota players to Division One will be good for the game, I'm certain.
And the health and growth of women's hockey is so obviously assured that gleefully anticipating the demise of mythical Minnesota high school hockey is perfectly justified.
I agree. And ending the pipeline of mythical Minnesota players to Division One will be good for the game, I'm certain.
And the health and growth of women's hockey is so obviously assured that gleefully anticipating the demise of mythical Minnesota high school hockey is perfectly justified.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
I have nothing against club hockey. There are many parts of the country where it is the only model that makes any sense. You need a critical mass of players in one area for the HS model to work at all, because you can't travel hundreds of miles every other weekend to play several games. You have to be able to have two teams play on a Tuesday or Thursday evening and not miss much school before or after.
Still, I don't think HS sports are dying. Much as we love hockey, there is more pressure to make it big in sports like football and basketball. If high school athletics was going to die, it should die there first. I don't see any indication that it is.
The edge that HS sports have over club sports is more people care about who wins or loses. Club sports are built around developing individuals. That's fine. But it produces a situation where some of the best players for that age group can get together and play on a weekend, and hardly anyone cares. Even the 30 parents in the stands are mostly interested in how much their son or daughter gets to play and how he or she performs. For pure entertainment value, give me a HS section final between less-talented teams in a full building every time over watching Shattuck play Balmoral Hall or the Pacific Steelers take on NAHA. Similarly, I'd rather watch an NCAA game where the teams might have less talent but there is something tangible on the line rather than see the US and Canada play in Four Nations.
Others feel differently. I can understand that. But it doesn't make one model better than another. They are just trying to achieve different things for different groups of athletes.
I have nothing against club hockey. There are many parts of the country where it is the only model that makes any sense. You need a critical mass of players in one area for the HS model to work at all, because you can't travel hundreds of miles every other weekend to play several games. You have to be able to have two teams play on a Tuesday or Thursday evening and not miss much school before or after.
Still, I don't think HS sports are dying. Much as we love hockey, there is more pressure to make it big in sports like football and basketball. If high school athletics was going to die, it should die there first. I don't see any indication that it is.
The edge that HS sports have over club sports is more people care about who wins or loses. Club sports are built around developing individuals. That's fine. But it produces a situation where some of the best players for that age group can get together and play on a weekend, and hardly anyone cares. Even the 30 parents in the stands are mostly interested in how much their son or daughter gets to play and how he or she performs. For pure entertainment value, give me a HS section final between less-talented teams in a full building every time over watching Shattuck play Balmoral Hall or the Pacific Steelers take on NAHA. Similarly, I'd rather watch an NCAA game where the teams might have less talent but there is something tangible on the line rather than see the US and Canada play in Four Nations.
Others feel differently. I can understand that. But it doesn't make one model better than another. They are just trying to achieve different things for different groups of athletes.
TonyTheTiger20
#SOAR
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
No. We agreed that maroon & gold is >>> than red and white.
TonyTheTiger20
#SOAR
FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
Wait...what? Is there somewhere below us that is freezing over?
Wait...what? Is there somewhere below us that is freezing over?
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
ESPN, the NYT and AP all had folks in house for every US game. I did coverage for Sports Illustrated. The Detroit Free Press and USA Today used AP wire copy.
The NYT writer is based in Ann Arbor and is usually their auto writer. If they didn't already have someone local, I'm not sure they would have covered it, but I guess we won't know. The AP writer is out of Detroit. It appears ESPN flew Johnette Howard in.
Most folks only showed up for the US games, but it is definitely unusual for that many "big name" US outlets to send people
ESPN, the NYT and AP all had folks in house for every US game. I did coverage for Sports Illustrated. The Detroit Free Press and USA Today used AP wire copy.
The NYT writer is based in Ann Arbor and is usually their auto writer. If they didn't already have someone local, I'm not sure they would have covered it, but I guess we won't know. The AP writer is out of Detroit. It appears ESPN flew Johnette Howard in.
Most folks only showed up for the US games, but it is definitely unusual for that many "big name" US outlets to send people
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships
Isn't it sad that some people are brainwashed into thinking the most deplorable things are good? I really feel bad for you 2.
I suspect your parents are to blame for the brainwashing. I do own 1 piece of clothing that is actually those putrid colors, a Mustang T shirt. A Mustang is the only thing I can think of that would make those colors tolerable.
Let's be real also, the rodent and eagle colors aren't the same. The eagle gold is really gold, whereas the rodent gold is a urine color. But it bothers me none to have you folks combine them into the same pallet, my distaste for both teams is rather high. At least I can go all summer with a smile thinking UW got the chance to dispatch BC and did so using one of the most cruel circumstances. And the 8 goal ***-whipping of the rodents make me smile too, I'll be watching that on dvr again this summer.
Isn't it sad that some people are brainwashed into thinking the most deplorable things are good? I really feel bad for you 2.
I suspect your parents are to blame for the brainwashing. I do own 1 piece of clothing that is actually those putrid colors, a Mustang T shirt. A Mustang is the only thing I can think of that would make those colors tolerable.
Let's be real also, the rodent and eagle colors aren't the same. The eagle gold is really gold, whereas the rodent gold is a urine color. But it bothers me none to have you folks combine them into the same pallet, my distaste for both teams is rather high. At least I can go all summer with a smile thinking UW got the chance to dispatch BC and did so using one of the most cruel circumstances. And the 8 goal ***-whipping of the rodents make me smile too, I'll be watching that on dvr again this summer.