2017 Women's World Championships

[Blackbeard]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

And when Clarkson won the NCAA title this season, the LA Times ran this:

https://twitter.com/bradwphoto/status/846077013098201094/photo/1

Haha. Sometimes it seems like you can't get any respect no matter what you accomplish.

 

[D2D]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Haha. Sometimes it seems like you can't get any respect no matter what you accomplish.

I don't think college hockey is too big a deal in L.A.
Wouldn't take it too seriously.

 

[thirdtime's . . .]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

. . . the rhubarb and Team USA’s win last night are good for the sport…very good.

(1) Agreed.
(2) Thank you for providing/confirming historical context for this coverage, and thanks for reintroducing the word “rhubarb” into the sport's lexicon.
(3) I think the game's speed stymied the announcer’s booth too. “There goes Spooner,” “There goes Poulin,” interspersed with the more than occasional “Here come the Americans!” Four lines? Who knew, other than Eeyore? Things got better as the game progressed. The puck carrier was usually identified, but lines, D-pairings, PP/PK units? I know it must be a tough gig: once a year, new players, new numbers, but, as FHF says, speed kills.
(4) Looks like Coyne and Knight have practiced that a thousand times.
(5) Great game.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

The total talent pool between the two countries is similar in size, (that changed a lot compared to 10-15 years ago when the Canadian pool was much deeper)

I saw numbers for USA hockey that said ~35,000 women and Canada has ~85,000. While the US is catching up I don't think they are close. But I do appreciate you take on development philosophies. I am surprised to hear the US is more focused on skating, when my kids played (15-20 years ago) I felt like they were to focused on games & game play and needed more skating. I would encourage them to hit the outdoor ice as much as possible and play pick up with kids that showed up because they got a lot more skating in those sessions.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

(second) best day ever! #murica

omg

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

I saw numbers for USA hockey that said ~35,000 women and Canada has ~85,000. While the US is catching up I don't think they are close. But I do appreciate you take on development philosophies. I am surprised to hear the US is more focused on skating, when my kids played (15-20 years ago) I felt like they were to focused on games & game play and needed more skating. I would encourage them to hit the outdoor ice as much as possible and play pick up with kids that showed up because they got a lot more skating in those sessions.

I've heard the development discussion comparisons and the US focus on skating on several occasions here on the radio and TV. That discussion is usually occurring during the world Juniors when development programs are compared. The discussion tends to be more prevalent when Canada loses to the US in that event. (US has done well in World Juniors in recent years. After years of domination Canada has struggled in that event in recent years, the blame often falling on lack of speed and poor goal tending).

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

And when Clarkson won the NCAA title this season, the LA Times ran this:

https://twitter.com/bradwphoto/status/846077013098201094/photo/1

Reminds me of the "clueless reporter syndrome". Exhibit A was the recent question to Sweinsteiger upon his arrival in the MLS if he could help Chicago win the World Cup.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

I saw numbers for USA hockey that said ~35,000 women and Canada has ~85,000.

Does that number include all the kids that play high school hockey in Minnesota ?. Reason I ask the question is because in the US high school sports including hockey are a big thing. North of the border it is all about club hockey, high school hockey is an after thought.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Does that number include all the kids that play high school hockey in Minnesota ?. Reason I ask the question is because in the US high school sports including hockey are a big thing. North of the border it is all about club hockey, high school hockey is an after thought.

In fairness, in every State outside of MN, High School Hockey is an afterthought. Except for Prep Schools, maybe.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Does that number include all the kids that play high school hockey in Minnesota ?. Reason I ask the question is because in the US high school sports including hockey are a big thing. North of the border it is all about club hockey, high school hockey is an after thought.

Don't quote me because this is off the top of my head. There are 90 girls teams playing High School hockey. Many of those varsity squads do not carry the full compliment of 20 and some carry little or no JV squad (My daughters first year she played 4 periods a game 1 on JV and 3 on varsity MSHSL rules limit a player to 4 game periods a day). I would put the total playing under MSHSL near 2,000.

AS for the numbers published by USAH, I have no idea how accurate they are but I don't see any reason for them to fudge them.

A question about girls life in the great white north: The path to the NHL looks pretty clear up there, but what about a girl with the goal of making the national team? Are the club teams good (here a club team indicates maybe not that great)? Do the girls "move up" by jumping to better clubs as they merit or is it all community based? Do they have regional development camps (they have them here) where the girls learn and are seen?

EDIT: BTW - many people see the MSHSL rules as an impediment to development because they limit the number of games a play can be in during the year. That is why the development school in Plymouth, MI is a hot spot. Some kids are playing Junior hockey even though that limits their NC$$ eligibility (they are more interested in the AHL career than education).

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

A question about girls life in the great white north: The path to the NHL looks pretty clear up there, but what about a girl with the goal of making the national team? Are the club teams good (here a club team indicates maybe not that great)? Do the girls "move up" by jumping to better clubs as they merit or is it all community based? Do they have regional development camps (they have them here) where the girls learn and are seen?

"here a club team indicates maybe not that great" - that's patently wrong. The best women's pre-college hockey in the US is played by club teams (assuming you include the JWHL). Even the prep schools are effectively academically based club teams (including the private ones in MN - yes, I know we're not supposed to talk about that little tidbit). The reality is that, like men's hockey, women's hockey is quickly going the way of juniors and club teams. In a few years, the schools will be enrolling 20 and 21 year old freshmen who repeated an early year and took a "post-grad" year to gain the advantage of age.

WRT to the Canadien model question, I'd defer to an actual Canadien for significantly more informed info, but the little I know suggests that club teams are the primary development mechanism. The players compete in Provincials and then Nationals just like USA hockey programs and the national team players come from the pool of players that competes in this sytem.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Speed is everything in women's hockey. USA has figured that out.

I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. What I find ironic is that while USA Hockey has figured it out, the college coaches largely seem to not have - when given the choice, most pick bigger, slower girls over smaller, faster girls - an increasing focus on size rather than speed. I would guess that this stems from many of the coaches still being middle-aged men who played when physicality (and fighting) were all the rage in the men's game and are trying to bring that mentality to the women's game (even though the men's game has started to become all about speed now also).

 

[ne7minder]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

"here a club team indicates maybe not that great" - that's patently wrong. The best women's pre-college hockey in the US is played by club teams (assuming you include the JWHL). Even the prep schools are effectively academically based club teams (including the private ones in MN - yes, I know we're not supposed to talk about that little tidbit). The reality is that, like men's hockey, women's hockey is quickly going the way of juniors and club teams. In a few years, the schools will be enrolling 20 and 21 year old freshmen who repeated an early year and took a "post-grad" year to gain the advantage of age.

WRT to the Canadien model question, I'd defer to an actual Canadien for significantly more informed info, but the little I know suggests that club teams are the primary development mechanism. The players compete in Provincials and then Nationals just like USA hockey programs and the national team players come from the pool of players that competes in this sytem.

Here in Minnesota, and at university, club teams are not up to the talent level of the school teams. The hockey factories are a different issue, as many are tied to prep schools (like SSM) and others like the ham and pizza teams are not producing a lot of talent I have seen in the WCHA (Chicago Mission seems to be the exception). Perhaps it is different out East.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Here in Minnesota, and at university, club teams are not up to the talent level of the school teams. The hockey factories are a different issue, as many are tied to prep schools (like SSM) and others like the ham and pizza teams are not producing a lot of talent I have seen in the WCHA (Chicago Mission seems to be the exception). Perhaps it is different out East.

Blake and Breck are essentially hockey factories (as well as other sports) and they seem to do OK against the HS teams. And the reality is that the hockey factories and club teams that you look down on are the future of women's D1 hockey. You are sadly mistaken if you think the vast majority of MN high school teams would not be chewed up by most of the US club teams (including the ham and pizza teams you reference). There are a very few MN high school teams that have enough D1/D3 recruits to be competitive in that group of teams on a regular basis.

 

[D2D]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Blake and Breck are essentially hockey factories (as well as other sports) and they seem to do OK against the HS teams.

Blake and Breck ARE high school teams! As are other private schools, like Hill-Murray, Benilde-St. Margaret's and St. Paul United. Blake, winner of four of the last five Class A State Championships, has decided to "opt up" to Class AA beginning next season. There, the road to another State Championship will be much tougher as they will be facing teams like Edina, a public school that is sending 8 of their graduating seniors to play D1 next fall. In Class AA it's the larger suburban public high schools that have ruled the roost for a long time; in fact they have claimed 8 of the past 10 titles: Minnetonka (3), Eden Prairie (2), and Edina, Roseville and Stillwater one each. The lone private "hockey factory" to win it was Hill-Murray who won it twice, in 2014 and 2015. And in 8 of the past 10 years the runner-up in the Class AA final was a public school (Hill-Murray and Benilde-St. Margaret's being the only exceptions). Arguably I suppose you could call all these schools "hockey factories" because they're good at it with a large number of their players going on to play D1 and many more at D3.

And the reality is that the hockey factories and club teams that you look down on are the future of women's D1 hockey.

That would take a dramatic turn-around from the status quo. I don't see the number of Minnesotans on D1 rosters going up from what it's been, but right now there's no other state that comes close in terms of the number on D1 rosters.

You are sadly mistaken if you think the vast majority of MN high school teams would not be chewed up by most of the US club teams (including the ham and pizza teams you reference). There are a very few MN high school teams that have enough D1/D3 recruits to be competitive in that group of teams on a regular basis.

I would agree with you that "the vast majority of MN high school teams would...be chewed up by most of the US club teams". There is a HUGE talent disparity between the very best and the very worst high school teams, but then again there are 117 varsity teams in just the one state (compared to a far fewer number (?) of club teams spread out all across the rest of the U.S.) so this is to be expected. But there's no denying that the large number of Minnesota high school teams (varsity + JV) affords a lot of girls the opportunity to play the sport while also representing their school, and there's something to be said for that. The system also gives a very respectable number of the truly elite players the opportunity to play for the USA U18 team, as we've seen in recent years, and that's pretty cool too.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Blake and Breck ARE high school teams! As are other private schools, like Hill-Murray, Benilde-St. Margaret's and St. Paul United. Blake, winner of four of the last five Class A State Championships, has decided to "opt up" to Class AA beginning next season. There, the road to another State Championship will be much tougher as they will be facing teams like Edina, a public school that is sending 8 of their graduating seniors to play D1 next fall. In Class AA it's the larger suburban public high schools that have ruled the roost for a long time; in fact they have claimed 8 of the past 10 titles: Minnetonka (3), Eden Prairie (2), and Edina, Roseville and Stillwater one each. The lone private "hockey factory" to win it was Hill-Murray who won it twice, in 2014 and 2015. And in 8 of the past 10 years the runner-up in the Class AA final was a public school (Hill-Murray and Benilde-St. Margaret's being the only exceptions). Arguably I suppose you could call all these schools "hockey factories" because they're good at it with a large number of their players going on to play D1 and many more at D3.


That would take a dramatic turn-around from the status quo. I don't see the number of Minnesotans on D1 rosters going up from what it's been, but right now there's no other state that comes close in terms of the number on D1 rosters.


I would agree with you that "the vast majority of MN high school teams would...be chewed up by most of the US club teams". There is a HUGE talent disparity between the very best and the very worst high school teams, but then again there are 117 varsity teams in just the one state (compared to a far fewer number (?) of club teams spread out all across the rest of the U.S.) so this is to be expected. But there's no denying that the large number of Minnesota high school teams (varsity + JV) affords a lot of girls the opportunity to play the sport while also representing their school, and there's something to be said for that. The system also gives a very respectable number of the truly elite players the opportunity to play for the USA U18 team, as we've seen in recent years, and that's pretty cool too.

So it is 117 now? Wow, I had no idea girls hockey had grown to that size, I'd have to increase my guess as to the number playing. While at the Womens Worlds we talked to a kid from Indiana that plays on a Chicago team and she mentioned a texan that plays for Colorado, they have to travel long distances just to attend practice. I am not sure what got under HE33's skin but he managed to miss my point and appears pretty sensitive on a pretty minor (to me at least) matter.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

So it is 117 now? Wow, I had no idea girls hockey had grown to that size, I'd have to increase my guess as to the number playing. While at the Womens Worlds we talked to a kid from Indiana that plays on a Chicago team and she mentioned a texan that plays for Colorado, they have to travel long distances just to attend practice. I am not sure what got under HE33's skin but he managed to miss my point and appears pretty sensitive on a pretty minor (to me at least) matter.

HE33's knowledge of Minnesota girls high school hockey is legendary... in his/her own mind.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

HE33's knowledge of Minnesota girls high school hockey is legendary... in his/her own mind.

As legendary as your group's knowledge of non-MN girls hockey that you all claim to know so much about. Please stop projecting the largely mythical MN model on the rest of the US - it makes you all seem isolated and out of touch. The future of girls ice hockey is NOT the old MN high school model - that model is dying even in MN (where the private high schools effectively recruit and organize teams even including girls from out of state in some cases). You will see more high end MN players move to the club/hockey factory/prep school model as time goes by (just like the boys did) and their dominance erode as players from around the country get more and more opportunities via the club/factory/prep school model - it's really already in process, you just aren't realizing it.

To be clear, I have absolutely no issue with girls playing local school hockey in MN or anywhere else (MA has a very active high school hockey league, albeit the level of play is not really high (but improving)). It is great that it provides an avenue for girls to participate and represent their communities - in fact is essential to the growth of the women's game. And I can understand the attraction of the MN high school model. But this thread is about the World Championships and the discussion about the National Team. And the local school model will less and less be the avenue to the highest levels of women's hockey just like it is on the men's side. I ask you - how many US National Team/NHL players played local HS hockey through graduation? Not many. And why will the women's game develop differnetly? It won't.

 

[shelfit]

From the beginning it's been much easier to have great stats in the MN high school league than it is playing for the club teams like in the JWHL. The MN high school league as a whole simply doesn't compare.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

As legendary as your group's knowledge of non-MN girls hockey that you all claim to know so much about. Please stop projecting the largely mythical MN model on the rest of the US - it makes you all seem isolated and out of touch. The future of girls ice hockey is NOT the old MN high school model - that model is dying even in MN (where the private high schools effectively recruit and organize teams even including girls from out of state in some cases). You will see more high end MN players move to the club/hockey factory/prep school model as time goes by (just like the boys did) and their dominance erode as players from around the country get more and more opportunities via the club/factory/prep school model - it's really already in process, you just aren't realizing it.

To be clear, I have absolutely no issue with girls playing local school hockey in MN or anywhere else (MA has a very active high school hockey league, albeit the level of play is not really high (but improving)). It is great that it provides an avenue for girls to participate and represent their communities - in fact is essential to the growth of the women's game. And I can understand the attraction of the MN high school model. But this thread is about the World Championships and the discussion about the National Team. And the local school model will less and less be the avenue to the highest levels of women's hockey just like it is on the men's side. I ask you - how many US National Team/NHL players played local HS hockey through graduation? Not many. And why will the women's game develop differnetly? It won't.

Who are these questions addressed to? Yourself? I mean, you answered them. Dude...You really do live in a verse of 1.