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2017 Women's World Championships

Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

HockeyEast33 said:
Please stop projecting the largely mythical MN model on the rest of the US - it makes you all seem isolated and out of touch.
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Sorry, when you refer to the MN model as being "largely mythical" it's makes you look "isolated and out of touch". It may not be for everybody, but there's nothing mythical about it.

HockeyEast33 said:
The future of girls ice hockey is NOT the old MN high school model - that model is dying even in MN (where the private high schools effectively recruit and organize teams even including girls from out of state in some cases).
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Did you read my post above, which clearly shows that private high schools have NOT come close to dominating the top class (AA) for the past 10 years? Private schools give students and hockey players a choice of where they want to study and prepare for college, both in the classroom and on the ice, which is a very good thing. But don't forget that many very good students and hockey players choose to attend public schools, which in Minnesota has an open enrollment system that allows kids in one school district to attend a school in another school district. As far as girls from out-of-state are concerned, there have been just a handful of such cases, most notably a couple from just across the river in Wisconsin (where high school hockey is not as good) that have gone to Hill-Murray, which is no more than a half hour drive away.

Also, recruiting by high school coaches and school staff is ILLEGAL throughout the State, for both private and public schools. Unless younger girls want to sit out a year of varsity competition, they must choose their high school, whether it be pubic or private, before entering 9th grade (transferring after once attending 9th grade requires a parent move of residence). Yes, in many cases they do decide before 9th grade to attend a school other than the one where their parents currently live, often making contact with other girls and parents in off-season club teams and tournaments.

And speaking of the off-season, girls can get plenty of ice-time, training and high-level competition by skating with club teams (like the Jr. Whitecaps, the IceCats, and others) and in the fall Elite League. During the winter high school season, the focus is more on practice, where the teams practice every day except Sunday and game day, then in the off-season it shifts more to playing games, although there are many camps and off-ice training programs that many girls take advantage of too.

So everything considered, the "largely mythical" Minnesota model as you call it is not going away anytime soon.
 
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Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

D2D said:
Private schools give students and hockey players a choice of where they want to study and prepare for college, both in the classroom and on the ice, which is a very good thing. But don't forget that many very good students and hockey players choose to attend public schools, which in Minnesota has an open enrollment system that allows kids in one school district to attend a school in another school district. As far as girls from out-of-state are concerned, there have been just a handful of such cases, most notably a couple from just across the river in Wisconsin (where high school hockey is not as good) that have gone to Hill-Murray, which is no more than a half hour drive away.

Also, recruiting by high school coaches and school staff is ILLEGAL throughout the State, for both private and public schools. Unless younger girls want to sit out a year of varsity competition, they must choose their high school, whether it be pubic or private, before entering 9th grade (transferring after once attending 9th grade requires a parent move of residence). Yes, in many cases they do decide before 9th grade to attend a school other than the one where their parents currently live, often making contact with other girls and parents in off-season club teams and tournaments.
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This all sounds a lot like recruiting and hockey factories to the rest of the world - out-of-state players, deciding to attend out-of-district schools, transfers, parent moves, etc.. Where's the legendary community spirit in all of this? Who cares if the coaches directly contact players or do it through parents/players groups? Technically, Division 1 coaches can't recruit players before their Junior year, yet freshman and sophomores are magically communicating with and committing to colleges - we all call that recruiting - how is what you described any different? I mean, come on....you sound like you're living in Camelot.

D2D said:
And speaking of the off-season, girls can get plenty of ice-time, training and high-level competition by skating with club teams (like the Jr. Whitecaps, the IceCats, and others) and in the fall Elite League. During the winter high school season, the focus is more on practice, where the teams practice every day except Sunday and game day, then in the off-season it shifts more to playing games, although there are many camps and off-ice training programs that many girls take advantage of too.
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So basically, club teams are better than school teams and players develop by playing on them - and you can play on club teams in MN - and these are the players that develop into National Team players... So your argument reinforces that club/hockey factory is the future of owmen's hockey. Thank you.
 
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Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

HockeyEast33 said:
As legendary as your group's knowledge of non-MN girls hockey that you all claim to know so much about. Please stop projecting the largely mythical MN model on the rest of the US - it makes you all seem isolated and out of touch. The future of girls ice hockey is NOT the old MN high school model - that model is dying even in MN (where the private high schools effectively recruit and organize teams even including girls from out of state in some cases). You will see more high end MN players move to the club/hockey factory/prep school model as time goes by (just like the boys did) and their dominance erode as players from around the country get more and more opportunities via the club/factory/prep school model - it's really already in process, you just aren't realizing it.

To be clear, I have absolutely no issue with girls playing local school hockey in MN or anywhere else (MA has a very active high school hockey league, albeit the level of play is not really high (but improving)). It is great that it provides an avenue for girls to participate and represent their communities - in fact is essential to the growth of the women's game. And I can understand the attraction of the MN high school model. But this thread is about the World Championships and the discussion about the National Team. And the local school model will less and less be the avenue to the highest levels of women's hockey just like it is on the men's side. I ask you - how many US National Team/NHL players played local HS hockey through graduation? Not many. And why will the women's game develop differnetly? It won't.
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you sound like a parent that spent uber bucks for your kid to play hockey at some elite ( or so you thought) club team and realize you wasted a lot of money for nothing, sour grapes are always bitter

all those kids that did play for their high school team, many of them earning scholarships at D1 schools (15 from the two schools that competed for the title alone, both public schools)
the fee to play in my school district was $185 last year
a number of kids have gone on to play D1, and even the Olympic team, a couple of boys have played in the NHL
not a bad return on investment, their parents could pay off their mortgage for what some of you have paid

the other possibility is that you are involved in fleecing parents of lots of money , preying on their dreams of their kid playing D1 hockey, or pro
you are afraid a group of parents will say if they can do it MN, we can do it here
the unsung heroes of HS hockey are all the volunteers who run the local teams as coaches, referees, organizers, ...
without them it wouldn't happen
it amazes me, when my family moved down from N Mn the only ice rink (not hockey) was at the catholic school, and a HS team was 7 years away
11 years later there was an indoor arena, 13 years later a kid was skating in the NHL, and about 15 years later the first HS championship
all the result of parents who rather than pay someone else to do it, got off their butt and gave their time for free
 
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Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

HockeyEast33 said:
The future of girls ice hockey is NOT the old MN high school model - that model is dying even in MN (where the private high schools effectively recruit and organize teams even including girls from out of state in some cases). .
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I have a couple observations:
- The private schools you refer to are actually part of the MN model, as these are high schools that compete in the MSHSL and win more than their share of championships. Depending on their location, they are drawing their players from the western suburban youth programs (in the case of BSM, Blake and Breck) or the suburban St Paul youth programs (Hill Murray, Cretin DH, SP United). The MN model is really found at the youth level. Edina's youth program not only developed 8 D1 players from this year's Edina HS team, but if this year is similar to past years, a fair percentage of BSM, Blake and Breck girls would be former Edina youth players. Eden Prairie and Minnetonka put out similar numbers of youth players.

- There are, I believe, only 2 Tier 1 programs in the state (I may be mistaken, but I am aware of only 2). These are, of course, SSM and Revolution. SSM's prep varsity roster has 4 girls from Minnesota, and 16 girls from other places. As successful as they are, they are not currently competing for players with the high schools. The Revolution as more local players, but it is a fairly new program and it remains to be seen if they can strip away local high school players.

The MN model may be on the way out, as you say, but if that's the case it isn't off to a very good start.
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

pokechecker said:
you sound like a parent that spent uber bucks for your kid to play hockey at some elite ( or so you thought) club team and realize you wasted a lot of money for nothing, sour grapes are always bitter

all those kids that did play for their high school team, many of them earning scholarships at D1 schools (15 from the two schools that competed for the title alone, both public schools)
the fee to play in my school district was $185 last year
a number of kids have gone on to play D1, and even the Olympic team, a couple of boys have played in the NHL
not a bad return on investment, their parents could pay off their mortgage for what some of you have paid

the other possibility is that you are involved in fleecing parents of lots of money , preying on their dreams of their kid playing D1 hockey, or pro
you are afraid a group of parents will say if they can do it MN, we can do it here
the unsung heroes of HS hockey are all the volunteers who run the local teams as coaches, referees, organizers, ...
without them it wouldn't happen
it amazes me, when my family moved down from N Mn the only ice rink (not hockey) was at the catholic school, and a HS team was 7 years away
11 years later there was an indoor arena, 13 years later a kid was skating in the NHL, and about 15 years later the first HS championship
all the result of parents who rather than pay someone else to do it, got off their butt and gave their time for free
Click to expand...

- Daughter played for a free public high school, for an inexpensive but successful club team with excellent training (<$1000 per year), for a very expensive prep school with average training (recruited for hockey but went for the academics because hockey was always a path to a well-regarded university), made several NDCs (inexpensive - thank you for paying your USA Hockey dues), and ended up playing NCAA tournament level college hockey. All money well-spent and we'd do it again, but most of her playing was largely on the cheap for parent run/coached teams (except school of course). I have no interest in or meaningful experience with fleecing parents of their money for hockey development. And you are utterly clueless of what you speak - as usual.

- As the rest of your MN brethren/sisterren, you continue to speak of and long for years past. I'm sure all of your history is accurate. And it is all quickly becoming just that - the good old times. When there were few girls playing, a couple of hard working and knowledgeable parents could start/improve a local HS program, and some of the girls could go onto the national team. And you will always be able to find a few of these stories no matter how many girls play. But the reality is that girls hockey is getting bigger, getting to the national team requires elite training, elite training generally doesn't happen at the public high school level, and the national team players will develop through the new system that is developing - clubs, factories, JWHL, etc.
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

HockeyEast33 said:
- blah blah blah....getting to the national team requires elite training, blah bah blah
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I'm betting that's what sucked you in, you thought you were getting something that others weren't, giving your kid a leg up
the jokes on you

OK, I'll play, define elite, who exactly is an elite coach? and what program exactly would you say is elite?

for starters, does coaching the US women's team to gold qualify? how about his assistant? I assume you aren't so stupid as to not know their background

you seem to poh pooh the parent volunteers, many of them played D1, even pro, for example JP Parise coached squirts, many of the Canadians who played pro in MN made it their home, coaching at various levels, and many of the boys who grew up in Mn and played in the NHL returned to coach

because they were/are volunteer dads, they don't qualify as elite?
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

HockeyEast33 said:
- Daughter played for a free public high school, for an inexpensive but successful club team with excellent training (<$1000 per year), for a very expensive prep school with average training (recruited for hockey but went for the academics because hockey was always a path to a well-regarded university), made several NDCs (inexpensive - thank you for paying your USA Hockey dues), and ended up playing NCAA tournament level college hockey. All money well-spent and we'd do it again, but most of her playing was largely on the cheap for parent run/coached teams (except school of course). I have no interest in or meaningful experience with fleecing parents of their money for hockey development. And you are utterly clueless of what you speak - as usual.

- As the rest of your MN brethren/sisterren, you continue to speak of and long for years past. I'm sure all of your history is accurate. And it is all quickly becoming just that - the good old times. When there were few girls playing, a couple of hard working and knowledgeable parents could start/improve a local HS program, and some of the girls could go onto the national team. And you will always be able to find a few of these stories no matter how many girls play. But the reality is that girls hockey is getting bigger, getting to the national team requires elite training, elite training generally doesn't happen at the public high school level, and the national team players will develop through the new system that is developing - clubs, factories, JWHL, etc.
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Your posts are long on assertion and short on actual evidence. For instance, if you look at the roster for the U18 team, it's hard to make an argument that representation from Minnesota high schools, even the public ones, is declining.
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

Eeyore said:
Your posts are long on assertion and short on actual evidence. For instance, if you look at the roster for the U18 team, it's hard to make an argument that representation from Minnesota high schools, even the public ones, is declining.
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Well, from 2016 to 2017 they did, although not by much and two years do not make a trend.
I went back and looked, and here are the numbers:

2016
MN high school - 13
Shattuck St. M -- 4
Prep/club teams- 5
Total .............. 22

2017
MN high school - 10
Shattuck St. M -- 5
Prep/club teams- 7
Total .............. 22

2016 & 2017 Combined
MN high school - 23 (52.3%)
Shattuck St. M -- 9 (20.4%)
Prep/club teams-12 (27.3%)
Total .............. 44

(USA won the World Championship both years)
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

shelfit said:
From the beginning it's been much easier to have great stats in the MN high school league than it is playing for the club teams like in the JWHL. The MN high school league as a whole simply doesn't compare.
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you must be trying to troll us, from what I have seen of the JWHL there is a big difference between the top and bottom players
watching some of the D play it is all they can do to skate backward and stay between the puck carrier and goal
it reminds me of MN HS girls hockey of 20 years ago
looking at who has played there among current and past players, sure, every year there are a few that go on to success in the NCAA D1 but most go on to play D3 ,Canadian, or nowhere.
If you listed the college stats from the best JWHL players and compared them to best MN HS players it wouldn't even be close, at least from the college stats, the first three lines and D pairs would be all MN HS players, with JWHL rounded out the 4th line .... maybe
the fact is the JWHL players stats are inflated due to the large discrepency in skill, just like they were in MN 20 years ago
the difference is those MN players went on to set NCAA records, win NCAA championships, be named All-American, become Patty K winner & finalists, make the Olympic team on merit, not because their coach was the Olympic coach,.....and coach today's girls who ... guess what/ win championships, make the U18, get D1 scholarships and become the best players in the NCAA.
 
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Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

pokechecker said:
If you listed the college stats from the best JWHL players and compared them to best MN HS players it wouldn't even be close, at least from the college stats, the first three lines and D pairs would be all MN HS players, with JWHL rounded out the 4th line .... maybe
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What am I missing? Based on stats alone, at least two JWHL alumni scored more goals this year than any Minnesotan. The top frosh in NCAA points, by a big margin, was JWHL. In the WCHA (which is filled with Minnesotans), a JWHL player almost won the freshman scoring title, ahead of all Minnesota high school freshman. Your top Gopher recruit next year is JWHL, and she was only 5th in league scoring this year. Seems to me like high end talent for a small league.
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

pokechecker said:
you must be trying to troll us, from what I have seen of the JWHL there is a big difference between the top and bottom players
watching some of the D play it is all they can do to skate backward and stay between the puck carrier and goal
it reminds me of MN HS girls hockey of 20 years ago
looking at who has played there among current and past players, sure, every year there are a few that go on to success in the NCAA D1 but most go on to play D3 ,Canadian, or nowhere.
If you listed the college stats from the best JWHL players and compared them to best MN HS players it wouldn't even be close, at least from the college stats, the first three lines and D pairs would be all MN HS players, with JWHL rounded out the 4th line .... maybe
the fact is the JWHL players stats are inflated due to the large discrepency in skill, just like they were in MN 20 years ago
the difference is those MN players went on to set NCAA records, win NCAA championships, be named All-American, become Patty K winner & finalists, make the Olympic team on merit, not because their coach was the Olympic coach,.....and coach today's girls who ... guess what/ win championships, make the U18, get D1 scholarships and become the best players in the NCAA.
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Maybe Minny and Wisco should stop wasting their time recruiting JWHL players and stick with Minny HS players. ;)
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

vicb said:
Maybe Minny and Wisco should stop wasting their time recruiting JWHL players and stick with Minny HS players. ;)
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At least in Minnesota's case, they mostly have stuck with Minny HS players. And having captured 4 of the last 6 NCAA titles, it's obviously served them quite well.
Clarkson has won the other two NCAA titles in the last 6 years. Just curious, how many JWHL alums do they have on their roster?
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

D2D said:
At least in Minnesota's case, they mostly have stuck with Minny HS players. And having captured 4 of the last 6 NCAA titles, it's obviously served them quite well.
Clarkson has won the other two NCAA titles in the last 6 years. Just curious, how many JWHL alums do they have on their roster?
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It most certainly has served Minny well.
As for me I got my JWHL mixed up with the PWHL (too many WHL's) :)
Clarkson has One, Savannah Harmon, Boston Shamrocks.
Next year she will be joined by Kia Castonguay (G) and Michaela Boyle (F) from the Shamrocks.
 
Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

FiveHoleFrenzy said:
For what purpose? Be honest with yourself...The so called facts from someone else would only matter if they matched up to your ego driven opinion.
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Here's some facts. The origin of the top 50 D1 NCAA players in the USCHO points/game list:

- Canadien (and played high school age hockey in Canada) - 24 (48%)
- US Prep/Club/Hockey Factory (including JWHL) - 15 (30%)
- Minnesota High School (and I've included 2 Blake players that were recruited to play at that MN HS hockey factory) - 7 (14%)
- Rest of World - 4 (8%)

So of the top 50 NCAA point getters (which arguably covers many of the best D1 players and some national team candidates), 14% are products of the MN high school system including 2 that could arguably be in the Prep/Club/Factory category (threw the MN contingent a bone). I recognize that this is far from an authoritative analysis, but I'd guess it may be directionally accurate. One interpretation certainly could be that MN high school hockey is already fading as a path to the National Team as 2/3 of the US developed players are not from this system.
 
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