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2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
- Thread starter brookyone
- Start date
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
I agree. Whether by rule or not it should have counted, in spirit, it was definitely a goal. It is hard to win a US/Canada game when you give up an own goal and then turn the puck over just inside your offensive blue line.
And yes, the ref played a big part in the latter. Can we all agree that the athletes deserve better officiating than they are given? The problem is that these female officials have no experience in working a game that is this fast and physical, so they are overmatched from the drop of the puck. There must be a lot of NHL officials available over the next week. At least for the elimination games, get them in there and I'll take my chances on them learning new rules. The current officials are far too involved in changing outcomes.
brookyone
Deport Right Wing Nuts
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
I have no trouble with the goal from an officiating standpoint...in that, regardless of the whistle...before, after, there's no way that puck should end up in the net. Someone opined that's on Vetter. I agree.
Hence my pre-tournament concerns with officiating. Fairly clear there are some officials whose qualifications are suspect...experience perhaps lacking as well. Unfortunately impacting games. ARM is right about officials being overmatched for the speed and physical aspect of these games. I'll second again what hockeynut mentioned regarding any priority of a female official vs. the best qualified official is a poor priority for the pinnacle, ultimate competition in the sport.
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
How 'bout the other US player standing around watching, rather than swooping behind her goalie to shore things up. Bozek?
I have more problems with the US players on Goal 2 than with the refs. If the roles are reversed, I'm wanting that goal to count for the US.
Fun to dissect this game. Reality is that the game that matters is in a few days!
How 'bout the other US player standing around watching, rather than swooping behind her goalie to shore things up. Bozek?
I have more problems with the US players on Goal 2 than with the refs. If the roles are reversed, I'm wanting that goal to count for the US.
Fun to dissect this game. Reality is that the game that matters is in a few days!
Birdwatcher
Registered User
robertearle
Well-known member
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
Today was the "winner doesn't have to play Finland again" game. Today mattered.
Today was the "winner doesn't have to play Finland again" game. Today mattered.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
I think the US players made the mistake of assuming that Vetter had it when she whiffed on her first attempt to cover the puck. Unfortately, she then missed it a second time when Carpenter gave it back to her. A multitude of sins committed by the U.S. on one play, and a goal that is almost impossible to overcome at this level. Vetter also made some big stops, like the one in the third period where the U.S. defenseman fell asleep off of a faceoff and allowed a Canadian player to stand alone on the doorstep. At the end when the extra attacker was on, there were a couple of players working to get the puck and a few more standing and watching. Were they tired? If so, then maybe the fear of not having a fourth line is being realized.
Pick a player on the U.S. team, go back and watch the game, and you'll see her making mistakes. Rather than throwing individuals under the bus, I'll just say that I think that the U.S. team as a whole needs to play cleaner should they meet the Canadians again if the outcome is going to change.
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
Thanks. I wasn't sure if there was some reason it wouldn't be delayed that I wasn't thinking about.
Agree. In the history of olympic women's ice hockey, it just seems like the officiating has always been disappointing, but this year seems particularly bad. We just shouldn't be talking about officiating this often - we should be talking about the substance of the games, but the officiating is hard to ignore. I'm a US fan, but I'm trying to be neutral.
You make a good point about neutral refs: since all college hockey is in North America (I think - maybe I'm wrong), when two North American teams play each other, you end up with refs who really have far less experience with games of this caliber.
Don't get me wrong - the game was still a great one to watch.
Thanks. I wasn't sure if there was some reason it wouldn't be delayed that I wasn't thinking about.
Agree. In the history of olympic women's ice hockey, it just seems like the officiating has always been disappointing, but this year seems particularly bad. We just shouldn't be talking about officiating this often - we should be talking about the substance of the games, but the officiating is hard to ignore. I'm a US fan, but I'm trying to be neutral.
You make a good point about neutral refs: since all college hockey is in North America (I think - maybe I'm wrong), when two North American teams play each other, you end up with refs who really have far less experience with games of this caliber.
Don't get me wrong - the game was still a great one to watch.
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
I agree with others on here that the refs have not been good. Often in women's hockey when you have refs doing games above their usual level the biggest problem is that they call too many body contact penalties. That wasn't the case here...they let a lot of body contact go. The biggest problem was their positioning on the ice...the game just seemed too fast for them with the result that they were too often in a poor position to make a call, or were unable to get out of the way of the play quickly enough.
I think this is another symptom of the growing pains of the international game. With only two or three countries playing at a high level, top officials will be concentrated in those countries and I don't think that Olympic principles would allow you to pull all of the officials from those countries. One suggestion that I have heard, is to use European refs who do men's hockey, but that also presents problems in that they may lack familiarity with the difficult judgement calls on what is and is not acceptable body contact in the women's game.
I agree with others on here that the refs have not been good. Often in women's hockey when you have refs doing games above their usual level the biggest problem is that they call too many body contact penalties. That wasn't the case here...they let a lot of body contact go. The biggest problem was their positioning on the ice...the game just seemed too fast for them with the result that they were too often in a poor position to make a call, or were unable to get out of the way of the play quickly enough.
I think this is another symptom of the growing pains of the international game. With only two or three countries playing at a high level, top officials will be concentrated in those countries and I don't think that Olympic principles would allow you to pull all of the officials from those countries. One suggestion that I have heard, is to use European refs who do men's hockey, but that also presents problems in that they may lack familiarity with the difficult judgement calls on what is and is not acceptable body contact in the women's game.
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
Exactly.
Team Finland is for real.
Exactly.
Team Finland is for real.
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
Totally agree. Did the US make mistakes that led to that goal? Absolutely. Was the whistle too quick? Maybe, and maybe because the ref was out of position and so lost sight of a puck she should have been able to see. I'm be mad if I were on the Canadian team if it had not counted as a goal. But quick whistles happen - to everyone. Once they do, you have to follow the rules. We don't want refs deciding it's not really a goal under the rules, but we're going to call it one because really it should have been a goal. Maybe Vetter sweeps her leg and pulls the puck out if she doesn't hear a whistle. Maybe a US D pulls it out at the last second. Neither of those are very likely, but that's the reason for the rule dis-allowing goals after the whistle. And by the way, I'm not saying Canada shouldn't have won. Maybe if they don't count the goal, Canada gets fired up and scores 6 seconds later. Just commenting on the officiating.
Maybe the NBC Sports feed moved the sound of the whistle up to create controversy and boost ratings.
Totally agree. Did the US make mistakes that led to that goal? Absolutely. Was the whistle too quick? Maybe, and maybe because the ref was out of position and so lost sight of a puck she should have been able to see. I'm be mad if I were on the Canadian team if it had not counted as a goal. But quick whistles happen - to everyone. Once they do, you have to follow the rules. We don't want refs deciding it's not really a goal under the rules, but we're going to call it one because really it should have been a goal. Maybe Vetter sweeps her leg and pulls the puck out if she doesn't hear a whistle. Maybe a US D pulls it out at the last second. Neither of those are very likely, but that's the reason for the rule dis-allowing goals after the whistle. And by the way, I'm not saying Canada shouldn't have won. Maybe if they don't count the goal, Canada gets fired up and scores 6 seconds later. Just commenting on the officiating.
Maybe the NBC Sports feed moved the sound of the whistle up to create controversy and boost ratings.
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
I don't know. RATy will see too much rubber to win the game single-handledly. And the Fins will have to score to win. The issue may get mental for the US if it's a one goal game or a tie going into the 3rd period. They will have to stay loose and play their systems confidently.
Having not watched the game yet, I would have hoped Stone would have made in game changes to the plan to counter what the canucks were doing to their breakout.
I don't know. RATy will see too much rubber to win the game single-handledly. And the Fins will have to score to win. The issue may get mental for the US if it's a one goal game or a tie going into the 3rd period. They will have to stay loose and play their systems confidently.
Having not watched the game yet, I would have hoped Stone would have made in game changes to the plan to counter what the canucks were doing to their breakout.
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
A thing that I'd like to know more about is whether or not that play was reviewable.
According to Doc, whether or not the whistle blew is not a reviewable play, meaning that the refs never should have had a chance to go to the tape and call it a goal.
Now, I know nothing about the rule book, so I'm merely repeating, but it's another interesting twist and another on the list of ref sins.
Complaining about the refs should be coming from both sides, though. There were a lot of non-calls on hits, the too-many men instances and the "extra time-out" that US got. Neither fanbase is being homer-y when they get upset about the impact the refs had on the game.
A thing that I'd like to know more about is whether or not that play was reviewable.
According to Doc, whether or not the whistle blew is not a reviewable play, meaning that the refs never should have had a chance to go to the tape and call it a goal.
Now, I know nothing about the rule book, so I'm merely repeating, but it's another interesting twist and another on the list of ref sins.
Complaining about the refs should be coming from both sides, though. There were a lot of non-calls on hits, the too-many men instances and the "extra time-out" that US got. Neither fanbase is being homer-y when they get upset about the impact the refs had on the game.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
What was the call on the ice? From what I could tell, the ref never made one either way. She didn't point at the goal, and she didn't wave it off.
pokechecker
Banned
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
this is where the Canucks have a big advantage, former NHL coach should be able to do a better job of implementing and adapting a forecheck than a college coach
this is the Olympics, rules are made up and modified on the fly
yep, they should be waiting tables or housecleaning in the hotels
Canada has been whining about the outcome of the US-Canada soccer match from the last summer Olympics, blaming it on the official, so now that they got the benefit of a bad call by an official hopefully they'll stop whining about it and accept being vanquished by Team USA
this is where the Canucks have a big advantage, former NHL coach should be able to do a better job of implementing and adapting a forecheck than a college coach
this is the Olympics, rules are made up and modified on the fly
yep, they should be waiting tables or housecleaning in the hotels
Canada has been whining about the outcome of the US-Canada soccer match from the last summer Olympics, blaming it on the official, so now that they got the benefit of a bad call by an official hopefully they'll stop whining about it and accept being vanquished by Team USA
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Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
I was a bit confused too, but what I think he was trying to say was the usual rule that you can't review and change when the whistle actually occurred - e.g. after a quick whistle, you can't then say you should have never blown the whistle and allow the goal to stand. But you can always review whether or not a goal occurred before or after the whistle.
driventoit
New member
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Agreed, with the exception of the officials being in the way. If they can't move enough to get out of the players' and puck's way, then they are just one more obstacle. But overall, I agree that assuming the referees added were competent, it would be a big plus.
mnpokecheck
Drinking the Koolaid
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament
I'll have an easier time accepting this argument once it's the case that the best person to officiate or coach in the men's game is a woman. What this argument boils down to in practice is that men should get all of the gigs in men's sports and most of them in women's. The ideal of hiring the best person for the job is such a farce that it's better to discard it altogether than to prop up just the one piece of it.
That said, the officiating in this tournament has been beyond terrible. Set aside the blown penalty calls; they can't even communicate with each other or get the rules right. There's the goal Japan should have had, but the most comedic moment came in this morning's Finland/Switzerland game. With the two teams playing 4-on-4, the Swiss were called for a penalty (and handing out a major for kicking on that was one of the few times I've been pleasantly surprised by a call). After some confusion, the ref signaled for five Finns to be on the ice for the ensuing face-off. So, when the coincidental penalties expired thirteen seconds later, the Finns were suddenly playing with too many men. It wasn't a judgment call; it was just a ref who had no idea what she was doing.
I'll also say that, as much as I agree the refs have let too much checking to go on, U.S. fans really shouldn't be complaining about it because Kendall Coyne should have missed today's game as she sat out a suspension for the elbow that laid out Lara Stalder.
I'll have an easier time accepting this argument once it's the case that the best person to officiate or coach in the men's game is a woman. What this argument boils down to in practice is that men should get all of the gigs in men's sports and most of them in women's. The ideal of hiring the best person for the job is such a farce that it's better to discard it altogether than to prop up just the one piece of it.
That said, the officiating in this tournament has been beyond terrible. Set aside the blown penalty calls; they can't even communicate with each other or get the rules right. There's the goal Japan should have had, but the most comedic moment came in this morning's Finland/Switzerland game. With the two teams playing 4-on-4, the Swiss were called for a penalty (and handing out a major for kicking on that was one of the few times I've been pleasantly surprised by a call). After some confusion, the ref signaled for five Finns to be on the ice for the ensuing face-off. So, when the coincidental penalties expired thirteen seconds later, the Finns were suddenly playing with too many men. It wasn't a judgment call; it was just a ref who had no idea what she was doing.
I'll also say that, as much as I agree the refs have let too much checking to go on, U.S. fans really shouldn't be complaining about it because Kendall Coyne should have missed today's game as she sat out a suspension for the elbow that laid out Lara Stalder.