What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I have a fix, get folks the mental health treatment they need, that's where the problem is

You have to be careful about this, because many people, including the assassin, have a fear of commission. Let's also look to creating some nurturing family values. After all, we wouldn't want the kid to be jealous of the students that are taught because they happen to get more love and attention than the teacher's own children.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

You have to be careful about this, because many people, including the assassin, have a fear of commission. Let's also look to creating some nurturing family values. After all, we wouldn't want the kid to be jealous of the students that are taught because they happen to get more love and attention than the teacher's own children.

c'mon! you are crazy to think that. just let the family members recommend that they go away to get the help they need. no issues.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The hated Ann Coulter weighs in on the massacre...
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html#read_more

Because I know certain people won't click the link because they don't like a certain Big Red person:

From the link joecct provided said:
If the deterrent effect of concealed-carry laws seems surprising to you, that's because the media hide stories of armed citizens stopping mass shooters. At the Portland shooting, for example, no explanation was given for the amazing fact that the assailant managed to kill only two people in the mall during the busy Christmas season.

It turns out, concealed-carry-holder Nick Meli hadn't noticed that the mall was a gun-free zone. He pointed his (otherwise legal) gun at the shooter as he paused to reload, and the next shot was the attempted mass murderer killing himself. (Meli aimed, but didn't shoot, because there were bystanders behind the shooter.)

...

In addition to the Portland mall case, here are a few more examples excluded by the Mother Jones' methodology:

-- Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, this week: Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero.

-- Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I'm excluding the shooters' deaths in these examples.)

-- Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.

-- Santee, Calif., 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates -- as well as the "trained campus supervisor"; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.

-- Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman's head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.

-- Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So all law-abiding gun owners are officially potential criminals? Thanks. :p

Don't be obtuse. :p

But I don't want any politicians telling me that new regulation will eliminate or even reduce the chance of events like Newtown occurring. There will be zero effect.

I don't want people with no expertise on the subject telling me new regulation will do nothing.

Agreed. I could probably find an illegal gun right now for sale on the street, within an hour.

Probably 95% of the rest of us could not.

Well, there is a singular problem: People are ****ed up. That is the heart of the whole conversation.

If only they had access to health care to address the problem of mental health.

We're going around and around, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I see the problem, you could enact a ban on the sale of all guns, of any type, and all clips, of any size, and crazy people are still going to kill innocent people.

Yes, but perhaps a % of those in harms way can be saved.

yeah because guns are registered, no more car jacking

Are you on drugs?

We can't fix everything so it is better to just do nothing. Right?

Just ask Walrus.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I have a fix, get folks the mental health treatment they need, that's where the problem is

We have to do that pretty cautiously however, the Soviet government used "mental hospitals" to "treat" dissidents because by definition anyone who criticized the regime had to be insane. :(

It seems to me there is no one single "fix" that satisfies all of our conflicting desires. For example, when you do a background check on a potential gun-buyer, are there HIPPA restrictions on what can be disclosed?

Or if you have a person whose behavior is well-controlled while on medication, yet is not reliable in taking it as prescribed? Do we surgically implant dosage dispensers into their bodies?

My utopian solution is to raise our children better from infancy. It's fool-proof if you can afford to wait 70 years for it to come to fruition! :rolleyes:

Next-best is to have more extensive and more in-depth interpersonal involvement with some sort of "community" that includes respect and decency as a minimum condition to join. When everyone in the small town all went to the same church, shame and ostracism were quite powerful tools to enforce a shared morality, a shared standard of behavior. That's gone forever perhaps yet we must develop something analogous. It takes hard work and will power; meanwhile, these days laziness is promoted as a civic virtue (look at how much money is made from people being on line, for example!).

We already have sufficient laws that, were they obeyed, would have prevented it. We've been a bit naive about how dangerous people on the "fringe" can be as your population grows larger (if you have 10 million people, three standard devations of crazy is 1,000 people, who are not publicized. If you have 300 million people, three standard deviations of crazy are 30,000 people, each of whom creates a big media storm when they go off.

How many people remember when Streaking at sporting events was a craze? One thing that helped stop it was when broadcasters refused to televise them and papers refused to run their pictures. They craved notoriety and were denied it. Suppose the identity of these nutjobs was kept secret, no one ran any explanation of his life story, no one ran interviews with his childhood friends or twice-removed neighbors asking questions in hushed breathless voices.

People used to "go postal"; no one does any more. What did they do differently to stop it? What changes worked for them? Can we learn and use them more broadly?

and there are five or six stories of a person who tried to commit a mass shooting and was stopped by someone with a legal carry permit. Why aren't they more publicized? Why aren't those citizens held up for widespread acclaim and praise? That would serve both to discourage other potential shooters somewhat (they are cowards! they only go to places where they know there are no guns), and it would also serve to inspire future potential rescuers (especially if we combine it with increased training and sensitivity on how to spot trouble before it starts; we certainly do NOT want hordes of vigilantes roving our streets either! )

I've lived in many different parts of this country, and I can say anecdotally that, in my personal experience, when people throughout the entire population learn how to use guns safely as children, there is very little gun-related crimes; while in places where only criminals and gang members learn how to use guns, NOT as children, but as adolescents, there is a lot of gun-related crime.

We require everyone to learn how to drive before we give them a drivers license, we can require everyone to learn how to use a gun safely before we give them a permit to buy and own. I'd much prefer that learning come as part of the mandatory education we require all children to attend to age 16, maybe in 3rd grade or so. The rec center in many cities in the west has a shooting range in the basement as a matter of course. Those guns rarely are used in the commission of a crime.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

and there are five or six stories of a person who tried to commit a mass shooting and was stopped by someone with a legal carry permit. Why aren't they more publicized? Why aren't those citizens held up for widespread acclaim and praise? That would serve both to discourage other potential shooters somewhat (they are cowards! they only go to places where they know there are no guns), and it would also serve to inspire future potential rescuers (especially if we combine it with increased training and sensitivity on how to spot trouble before it starts; we certainly do NOT want hordes of vigilantes roving our streets either! )
I applied for a purchase permit today, and will be taking the required conceal carry class, then applying for that as well.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Just ask Walrus.
Ask me what? Why all your suggestions will do nothing, its an easy answer, registering guns will do nothing to stop a mentally unstable person from doing what they want to do. Register private sales, register anything and everything you want, if someone wants to go off they will. Help for the mentally ill is the only thing that will work.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Went to WalMart today, they were sold right out of assault rifles. Clerk was too harried to sell me my son's gift (.22) in a timely fashion, asked me to come back tomorrow, he said one guy today bought 3 AR-15s.
But Walrus is right that we should treat the root of the violence problem (mental health), not the symptoms (widespread gun ban as chemotherapy for all of society). It's very simple. Not cheap or easy, but simple. Most families with a mentally ill teenager or 20-something who exhibits psychotic episodes would love to have alternatives to get him committed to care without having to have him arrested. It's an area of civil rights that's well worth trampling on. Ask some of the schizophrenic/bipolar/otherwise ill people who get long term treatment, and their families, what they would have done differently. They will tell you (and have told me) that they only wish there were a way to get treatment earlier without having to commit felonies.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I think the disagreement some of us have is that no one has really proposed a solution. "Solutions" have been offered, but it's been demonstrated they have no practical effect on the violence.

Where has it been demonstrated that provided solutions have no practical effect on violence? All we've heard is 'I don't think these solutions will have any practical effect on violence'.

Not making any claims about you...but I'd love to hear a workable solution come from the right on this type of problem. They just don't anymore.

Edit: nice try from geezer tho
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Where has it been demonstrated that provided solutions have no practical effect on violence? All we've heard is 'I don't think these solutions will have any practical effect on violence'.
All we hear from those pushing for these so-called solutions is, "well, maybe it will save a couple lives, if we're lucky." You're advocating a change from the status quo, and a further restriction of citizens' rights. The burden of proof is squarely upon your shoulders to show that your proposals actually do something - you know, besides making politicians feel good about themselves and getting on TV.

Note that I'm not asking for your proposals to do *everything* (the strawman that some have promoted), but they ought to do *something*. Show me how your proposed change would have actually prevented just one of the specific mass shootings that has occurred in the past.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

All we hear from those pushing for these so-called solutions is, "well, maybe it will save a couple lives, if we're lucky."

Below is one example I found in 2 minutes...

Someone willing, able and actually committing mass murder can easily acquire numerous guns with mass killing capabilities within the current laws. Do you actually believe that there is absolutely zero chance that some additional gun control step (you pick it) could have saved even one life?

Colo. shooter purchased guns legally from 3 different stores

Gander Mountain, which sold an AR-15 assault rifle believed to be used in the shootings at a movie theater in Aurora, said the company was in compliance with state and federal laws and that it was "fully cooperating with this ongoing investigation." A second federal law enforcement official said Holmes had a high-capacity ammunition magazine in the assault rifle. Oates said a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene.

The type of ammunition magazine Holmes is accused of using was banned for new production under the old federal assault weapon ban, said Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. When the ban expired in 2004, gun manufacturers flooded the market with the type of high-capacity magazines Holmes used Friday, Vice said.

Oates did not specify the type of rifle but said that experts told him "with that drum magazine, he could have gotten off 50 to 60 rounds, even if it was semiautomatic, within one minute. And as far as we know, it was a pretty rapid pace of fire in that theater."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...rchased-guns-legally-from-3-different-stores/


Not going to have a discussion on solutions with someone...who believes that there zero chance of even one life to be saved from any possible gun control policies ever.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

But Walrus is right that we should treat the root of the violence problem (mental health), not the symptoms (widespread gun ban as chemotherapy for all of society). It's very simple. Not cheap or easy, but simple. Most families with a mentally ill teenager or 20-something who exhibits psychotic episodes would love to have alternatives to get him committed to care without having to have him arrested. It's an area of civil rights that's well worth trampling on. Ask some of the schizophrenic/bipolar/otherwise ill people who get long term treatment, and their families, what they would have done differently. They will tell you (and have told me) that they only wish there were a way to get treatment earlier without having to commit felonies.

I don't see anyone advocating against a call for treating mental illness, but something tells me the GOP is the last group on the planet that is ever going to take take the lead on that movement so forgive me for coughing.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Speaking five days after the massacre, Obama said Wednesday that a new group led by Vice President Joe Biden is charged with developing "concrete proposals" for dealing with gun violence "no later than January." The group will include some Cabinet members and outside organizations.

No single law or set of laws can prevent gun violence, Obama said Wednesday, but the complexity of the issue "can no longer be an excuse for doing nothing." Authorities must work to make "access to mental health care at least as easy as access to a gun," and the country needs to tackle a "culture that all too often glorifies guns and violence," he said.

Speaking at a news conference, Obama called for quick action from Congress. "A majority of Americans support banning the sale of military-style assault weapons. A majority of Americans support banning the sale of high-capacity ammunition clips. A majority of Americans support laws requiring background checks before all gun purchases so that criminals can't take advantage of legal loopholes to buy a gun from somebody who won't take the responsibility of doing a background check at all," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/us/connecticut-school-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I don't see anyone advocating against a call for treating mental illness, but something tells me the GOP is the last group on the planet that is ever going to take take the lead on that movement so forgive me for coughing.
Whether the GOP does anything or not, the root of the problem is mental illness. I don't see the Dems jumping all over it either, at least Obama talks about it. maybe he can take some of the pork out of the Hurricane relief bill(like cars for Homeland security, anyone see a homeland security vehicle that wasn't brand new?) and use that to help folks who suffer from mental illness. I won't hold my breath
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I don't see anyone advocating against a call for treating mental illness, but something tells me the GOP is the last group on the planet that is ever going to take take the lead on that movement so forgive me for coughing.

You're certainly right about that. Obama will have to take the lead on this and figure out a way to get it done. The best thing for the GOP is to put them all out of a job, they've continually proven to be a waste of space.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

With all this talk from conservative leaning posters about getting treatment for mental illness, one wonders if these same posters are now on board with the Afforadable Care Act and its provision that everybody have insurance....
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

With all this talk from conservative leaning posters about getting treatment for mental illness, one wonders if these same posters are now on board with the Afforadable Care Act and its provision that everybody have insurance....

Yeah baby! No more bills! Plus I want a new microwave.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Just what we need, a bunch more drugged up wackos. Wasn't the Aurora dude on bath salts or some other psychedelic drug? Do you know how many people we've seen die due to drug use, and I'm not even talking about the ones that are labelled as illegal, but the dangerous ones prescribed by psychiatrists?

It all starts at home. No drugs involved, no weapons, just good old fashioned family morals. Governments are either control freaks or the people involved take this for granted, but there is an attachment that develops when a child is born. If you break that attachment (and I'm not talking umbilical cord), you start getting problems. As part of that link I posted earlier regarding bar buddies, the mother loved the students more than her own kid. Obviously there was a mention of Asperger's, and certainly it is a serious issue that requires attention (I doubt AspyDad would get involved in the Café; he has some experience). We need to be careful, though, because as much as there are people that truly require this special attention, we find many people misdiagnosed as such, and that could screw someone up even more than having the issue in the first place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top