2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Snowmobiles and motorcycles killing people happen because of an accident. They have a primary function to move people from point A to point B.

A gun's only function (short of starting a race) is to fire a bullet at something. That's what it does. The only x-factors are whether the target is stationary, moving, living, inanimate, human or animal.

We're really dragging the conversation down if we insist that snowmobiles/motorcycles are the same as guns.

So if the dudes' truck ran over Forrest Gump in that one scene before he was "discovered" by the Alabama football coach, it would have still been considered an accident?

 

[unofan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

We don't make people take background checks everytime they want to buy a car. We legislate the behavior, not the object.

So we should regulate what, using a gun rather than merely owning it? You can own as many guns as you want, but if you want to fire one, you need to come down to the State Department of Metal Projectiles to get your shooting license?

 

[unofan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So if the dudes' truck ran over Forrest Gump in that one scene before he was "discovered" by the Alabama football coach, it would have still been considered an accident?

Are you really arguing that a car or truck's primary purpose is to kill people?

Because otherwise, your analogy makes no logical sense.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Yes, it would not be a foolproof system. But as the old expression goes, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

We do make people take background checks to legally operate a car though. That's getting your license and insurance. Both of which you can't drive legally without. This is the difference between some gun ownership/usage and cars where car usage is actually more restrictive or better monitored.

There are still some states where you can drive without insurance (South Carolina, Virginia, and in a roundabout way New Hampshire). Don't let the facts spoil you, though.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Are you really arguing that a car or truck's primary purpose is to kill people?

Because otherwise, your analogy makes no logical sense.

You're trying to tell me that the primary purpose of a gun is to kill a person, rather than to pierce a hole through anything it's pointed at?

THAT is what makes no logical sense.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So if the dudes' truck ran over Forrest Gump in that one scene before he was "discovered" by the Alabama football coach, it would have still been considered an accident?

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Actually, I just disproved your point. Once again, you're making assumptions that you expect to be believed by everyone.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

You're trying to tell me that the primary purpose of a gun is to kill a person, rather than to pierce a hole through anything it's pointed at?

THAT is what makes no logical sense.

The primary purpose of the gun is to pierce a hole through something. Regardless of whether that's inanimate, human or animal is up to the shooter, but that is its primary purpose. It's sole purpose, really, once you ignore the idea of starting a footrace.

A car's primary purpose is to move people. Trying to run Forrest Gump over is not the reason that cars exist.

 

[mookie1995]

Are you really arguing that a car or truck's primary purpose is to kill people?

Because otherwise, your analogy makes no logical sense.

Of all the times I've seen gun in operation, 99.9999% of the time it is during the Olympics.

Who won gold for "most 'kill people'"

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The primary purpose of the gun is to pierce a hole through something. Regardless of whether that's inanimate, human or animal is up to the shooter, but that is its primary purpose. It's sole purpose, really, once you ignore the idea of starting a footrace.

A car's primary purpose is to move people. Trying to run Forrest Gump over is not the reason that cars exist.

Wouldn't starting a foot race be a gun's "sole" purpose? I'll consider the puns thread.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Of all the times I've seen gun in operation, 99.9999% of the time it is during the Olympics.

Who won gold for "most 'kill people'"

Depending on what you loaded that with, I'm sure you could kill someone. Heck, you could kill someone by throwing a lacrosse ball. Does that mean we need to ban that sport as well?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

It's the American Dream

http://fox13now.com/2012/12/17/west-kearns-elementary-student-brings-gun-to-school/

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So we should regulate what, using a gun rather than merely owning it? You can own as many guns as you want, but if you want to fire one, you need to come down to the State Department of Metal Projectiles to get your shooting license?

Have you ever read "All Quiet on the Western Front"? Your reference to a shooting license is quite appropriate....

To save the illiterate time..

Another man, Josef Hamacher, takes the blame for throwing the bottle. He later explains to the men that he has a "shooting license," which means he has a certificate that says he is periodically not responsible for his actions. This means that he can do what he likes, and is never punished.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I'm curious how many of these kids played sports when they were growing up. It was something I thought about while driving to work this morning. I can't remember hearing about any of these kids who played youth sports (beyond maybe a season or two).

The other common thread I heard that made me think about this was how many of us have guns? How many of us have body armor? How many of these massacres were carried out while the shooter was wearing body armor?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

You're trying to tell me that the primary purpose of a gun is to kill a person, rather than to pierce a hole through anything it's pointed at?

It is to kill. Target practice didn't really go anywhere until 1900. Its why guns were developed and why they've been around over the centuries. If that's not the purpose then lets switch over to paint ball guns...and be done with it. If handguns are primarily used for target practice...let's make ownership illlegal and guns usable only at gun ranges.

Really? How much lower? How many would have died if he didn't have the assault rifle? How many if he didn't have any guns at all? I assume there is some sort of mathematical formula we can apply to give us this precise answer, and we don't just have to pull it out of our azzes.

And these new laws that are going to save us, but not effect a complete ban on the sale of guns. Mrs. Lanza would have been stopped at the gun counter exactly how again?

One life? Isn't one life out of 26 enough? If its at least one, does it matter?

I have never been for banning guns...the best solution lies elsewhere. But to make the claim that guns don't make mass murder easier is ludicrous.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So we should regulate what, using a gun rather than merely owning it? You can own as many guns as you want, but if you want to fire one, you need to come down to the State Department of Metal Projectiles to get your shooting license?

No. You shoot someone, that's a crime. That's the law that we need. That way if you get a gun and don't shoot someone, no crime. You get a gun and shoot someone, a crime. It's really pretty easy. It changes behavior. I'm not going to shoot someone because I don't want to go to jail. Just like I'm not going to drive drunk because I don't want to go to jail.

Those are good laws. They enact a penalty for wrongful conduct. By making the conduct wrongful, and the penalty severe enough, we change behavior, like we did with drunk driving.

What you can't do is change everyone's behavior. Some people are just crazy, anti-social, criminal, psychotic, or some combination of all the above. But what people now want to do is try to change everyone's behavior. That's impossible.

And the weird thing is, it isn't really that big of a problem. Of course it's terrible when kids get shot. But we don't have someone going into a school and shooting kids 1000 times a day, like we probably do drunk driving. It's an event that shocks us, but how many different classrooms of how many different kids went to school that same day, and everyday before, and everyday after, with no incident at all?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

It is to kill. Target practice didn't really go anywhere until 1900. Its why guns were developed and why they've been around over the centuries. If that's not the purpose then lets switch over to paint ball guns...and be done with it. If handguns are primarily used for target practice...let's make ownership illlegal and guns usable only at gun ranges.



One life? Isn't one life out of 26 enough? If its at least one, does it matter?

I have never been for banning guns...the best solution lies elsewhere. But to make the claim that guns don't make mass murder easier is ludicrous.

In the world of mass murder, Lanza's use of a gun makes him a piker. 26 people. That's nothing. Guns are extremely inefficient for mass murder. You basically have to pick some 6 year olds. Anyone older and you're lucky if you get a dozen. Bombs, poison, airplanes into buildings. Now that's how you do mass murder.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

If knives are just as good as guns...we then can have gun control for 'good, honest folk' who are only allowed to carry knives, but we don't worry too much about guns falling into the hands of criminals. Its a good thing you have that knife to defend your family against that criminal breaking into your house with a gun. Afterall, knives are just as good as guns...right?

According to the FBI, in the 5 years between 2007 and 2011, there were 68,720 murders committed in this country. Of them, 1874 were committed using a rifle (not just an assault rifle) like Lanza did here.

Knives were used to commit 8967 murders.

 

[Rover]

What you can't do is change everyone's behavior. Some people are just crazy, anti-social, criminal, psychotic, or some combination of all the above. But what people now want to do is try to change everyone's behavior. That's impossible.

And the weird thing is, it isn't really that big of a problem. Of course it's terrible when kids get shot. But we don't have someone going into a school and shooting kids 1000 times a day, like we probably do drunk driving. It's an event that shocks us, but how many different classrooms of how many different kids went to school that same day, and everyday before, and everyday after, with no incident at all?

1) Nobody is saying that we can change everybody's behavior. What we seek is to stop more potential murderers, particuarly the unstable ones, from obtaining firearms in complete anonymity. Not only might you prevent some homicides, be it of multiple people or just one individual, you also might reach the person who needs mental help.

2) As I alluded to above, its not just mass shootings but as someone posted an example of a crazy guy killing his two relatives, this should be caught too with a better reporting system and more robust background checks. Same thing if a dude is all agitated and muttering about his ex-wife and alimony while trying to buy an elephant gun. Might be a good idea for a 3 day waiting period plus a heads up to the police just in case.

3) For the record, if faced with someone pointing a gun at me or a knife, I'll take the knife wielder any day. I can maybe keep that guy away from me. I can't outrun or most likely hide behind something in time to stop a bullet.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

1) Nobody is saying that we can change everybody's behavior. What we seek is to stop more potential murderers, particuarly the unstable ones, from obtaining firearms in complete anonymity. Not only might you prevent some homicides, be it of multiple people or just one individual, you also might reach the person who needs mental help.

2) As I alluded to above, its not just mass shootings but as someone posted an example of a crazy guy killing his two relatives, this should be caught too with a better reporting system and more robust background checks. Same thing if a dude is all agitated and muttering about his ex-wife and alimony while trying to buy an elephant gun. Might be a good idea for a 3 day waiting period plus a heads up to the police just in case.

So how does the law that you would like to see on the books read? And then, can you come up with a specific example of how your law would have prevented Sandy Hook, Columbine, etc?

It sounds like you're considering that to be licensed to sell a gun, you would first require a license in psychiatry.