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2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

1) Nobody is saying that we can change everybody's behavior. What we seek is to stop more potential murderers, particuarly the unstable ones, from obtaining firearms in complete anonymity. Not only might you prevent some homicides, be it of multiple people or just one individual, you also might reach the person who needs mental help.

2) As I alluded to above, its not just mass shootings but as someone posted an example of a crazy guy killing his two relatives, this should be caught too with a better reporting system and more robust background checks. Same thing if a dude is all agitated and muttering about his ex-wife and alimony while trying to buy an elephant gun. Might be a good idea for a 3 day waiting period plus a heads up to the police just in case.

3) For the record, if faced with someone pointing a gun at me or a knife, I'll take the knife wielder any day. I can maybe keep that guy away from me. I can't outrun or most likely hide behind something in time to stop a bullet.

So you want to go after the black market? Good luck with that. Just look how well that's going on the border between Arizona and Mexico. If someone can't get a gun through those traditional means, but absolutely needs one, where else do you think they're going to go?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

If you want to prevent crazy people from killing, euthanate crazy people.
 
So how does the law that you would like to see on the books read? And then, can you come up with a specific example of how your law would have prevented Sandy Hook, Columbine, etc?

It sounds like you're considering that to be licensed to sell a gun, you would first require a license in psychiatry. :)

That would be nice, but not quite...

1) Every "legal" gun sale goes through background check. That means no buying a gun and then giving it to your idiot brother (if you have an idiot brother, you get the idea). You also have the waiting period in case somebody needs to cool off. I can't speak for the world, but I myself wouldn't know where to obtain an illegal firearm. Most people I would think would first start with a gun store/gun show/etc.

2) All firearms dealers, in the process of obtaining and maintaining a license to sell their product, need to go through a training class held by local law enforcement so that they know some of the signs to look out for and who they should contact if they suspect a problem. Much like bar owners need to train their staff who to serve, which ID's to accept, and when to cut people off or they get sued to oblivion if somebody gets drunk at their place and then injures somebody driving.

3) On the mental health issue, any direct relative can make a request to the police (parent, kid, sibling, spouse) that they visit the person in question and if they determine its a problem can request said individual avail themselves of the one free mental health exam allowed by my new law. Come in and fill out a form as I want to weed out hoaxes as best I can. No you can't request this on your neighbor because his dog keeps peeing on your lawn. The only exception to the direct relative rule outside of medical or law enforecment professionals would be: School principals/headmasters working with their teachers for a problematic kid in their class.

Again, this won't solve every case, but if there are any warning signs or an attempt to arm themselves to the teeth this could be the best way for everyone without enacting really any restrictive anti-gun laws.

EDIT: Missed your last question. I don't know enough about the CT horror to say. Columbine those kids seemed to be giving out enough signs to warrant intervention by lets say the school making a request.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

That would be nice, but not quite...

1) Every "legal" gun sale goes through background check. That means no buying a gun and then giving it to your idiot brother (if you have an idiot brother, you get the idea). You also have the waiting period in case somebody needs to cool off. I can't speak for the world, but I myself wouldn't know where to obtain an illegal firearm. Most people I would think would first start with a gun store/gun show/etc.
Go on Craigs list, maybe they don't allow gun on there, try www.unclehenrys.com, plenty of guns, legal guns, no dealer to go thru. Whats to stop anyone from giving away a gun?
2) All firearms dealers, in the process of obtaining and maintaining a license to sell their product, need to go through a training class held by local law enforcement so that they know some of the signs to look out for and who they should contact if they suspect a problem. Much like bar owners need to train their staff who to serve, which ID's to accept, and when to cut people off or they get sued to oblivion if somebody gets drunk at their place and then injures somebody driving.
Firearm dealers are already licensed
3) On the mental health issue, any direct relative can make a request to the police (parent, kid, sibling, spouse) that they visit the person in question and if they determine its a problem can request said individual avail themselves of the one free mental health exam allowed by my new law. Come in and fill out a form as I want to weed out hoaxes as best I can. No you can't request this on your neighbor because his dog keeps peeing on your lawn. The only exception to the direct relative rule outside of medical or law enforecment professionals would be: School principals/headmasters working with their teachers for a problematic kid in their class..

We can do free kidney transplants for illegal aliens but we can't even take care of our own mentally disturbed citizens.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

That would be nice, but not quite...

1) Every "legal" gun sale goes through background check. That means no buying a gun and then giving it to your idiot brother (if you have an idiot brother, you get the idea). You also have the waiting period in case somebody needs to cool off. I can't speak for the world, but I myself wouldn't know where to obtain an illegal firearm. Most people I would think would first start with a gun store/gun show/etc.

2) All firearms dealers, in the process of obtaining and maintaining a license to sell their product, need to go through a training class held by local law enforcement so that they know some of the signs to look out for and who they should contact if they suspect a problem. Much like bar owners need to train their staff who to serve, which ID's to accept, and when to cut people off or they get sued to oblivion if somebody gets drunk at their place and then injures somebody driving.

3) On the mental health issue, any direct relative can make a request to the police (parent, kid, sibling, spouse) that they visit the person in question and if they determine its a problem can request said individual avail themselves of the one free mental health exam allowed by my new law. Come in and fill out a form as I want to weed out hoaxes as best I can. No you can't request this on your neighbor because his dog keeps peeing on your lawn. The only exception to the direct relative rule outside of medical or law enforecment professionals would be: School principals/headmasters working with their teachers for a problematic kid in their class.

Again, this won't solve every case, but if there are any warning signs or an attempt to arm themselves to the teeth this could be the best way for everyone without enacting really any restrictive anti-gun laws.

EDIT: Missed your last question. I don't know enough about the CT horror to say. Columbine those kids seemed to be giving out enough signs to warrant intervention by lets say the school making a request.
Okay, but the part of your law that could have done some good (the school making a request for a psych evaluation) has nothing to with gun sales, waiting periods, or training for gun sales clerks. That's really my whole point: there are definitely some valuable things that we can do, and so we should do those things. But they have precious little, if anything, to do with gun sales.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Go on Craigs list, maybe they don't allow gun on there, try www.unclehenrys.com, plenty of guns, legal guns, no dealer to go thru. Whats to stop anyone from giving away a gun?

you can't give away a car without filling out some paperwork to transfer the registration. Guns should be no different (and there should be a background check and waiting period, even for private transactions (which should be done through a licensed 3rd party)
 
I'm curious how many of these kids played sports when they were growing up. It was something I thought about while driving to work this morning. I can't remember hearing about any of these kids who played youth sports (beyond maybe a season or two).

The other common thread I heard that made me think about this was how many of us have guns? How many of us have body armor? How many of these massacres were carried out while the shooter was wearing body armor?

I don't know about sports but the description of this young man's behavior in school makes me question if it was in anyone's best interest to have him attend a 'regular' school. I'm sure the school system would have been sued had anyone suggested that having this kid completely ostracized by all of his school mates wasn't really helping him develop but at what point is it more about helping the young person than assuming 12 years of teasing of indifference helps them 'fit in'?.

And no, knee- jerk nation, I'm not suggesting he be committed or put in some 1940's horror house. There may be something between the two.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I bought a Savage bolt action rifle on Sunday, and I definitely went through a background check....Maybe it isn't a federal law, but around here, if you buy a firearm from a dealer (Cabelas in this case) you go through a background check. I'm going to get a handgun purchase permit later this week, again, a background check AND a waiting period.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I don't know about sports but the description of this young man's behavior in school makes me question if it was in anyone's best interest to have him attend a 'regular' school. I'm sure the school system would have been sued had anyone suggested that having this kid completely ostracized by all of his school mates wasn't really helping him develop but at what point is it more about helping the young person than assuming 12 years of teasing of indifference helps them 'fit in'?.

And no, knee- jerk nation, I'm not suggesting he be committed or put in some 1940's horror house. There may be something between the two.

DUH!!!! yet rover thinks that 'family' will gladly hand over their kids to the state to institutionalize!! i can't believe i keep reading him think that is a good idea :D

we are in a culture that everyone has to be in the mainstream. no 'special' classes anymore. everyone gets a trophy.

we are not that far removed from families with homosexual child predators going into the priesthood and having the parents smile ear-to-ear with joy.

nobody wants to be seen are strange or weird. you would be fought tooth and nail to keep any kids out of the system.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I bought a Savage bolt action rifle on Sunday, and I definitely went through a background check....Maybe it isn't a federal law, but around here, if you buy a firearm from a dealer (Cabelas in this case) you go through a background check. I'm going to get a handgun purchase permit later this week, again, a background check AND a waiting period.

it is federal law, but there is a loophole -- gun shows and private sales do not require a background check

my only firearm is a early to mid 40s Savage Model 7 rifle (.22 semi automatic). My grandmother bought it for my grandfather as a birthday gift and he used to use it to hunt pheasants. I'll have to ask my dad again what year it was.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

it is federal law, but there is a loophole -- gun shows and private sales do not require a background check
Yeah....but you can't stop private sales. If someone wants to sell a gun to someone for cash, how is it even remotely possible to regulate that? Sure, it is possible to say that if you are caught with a gun that isn't registered to you it is illegal, but I don't see that preventing any crazy people from killing anyone, it just makes it that much more difficult for those of us that own and use firearms responsibly to buy them.

I just fail to see how any of these "solutions" actually prevent the crazies from getting guns. They all hurt us, but the crazies will still get them. That is why I think the most effective path is to figure out a way to identify the crazies, by some kind of reporting system, like was mentioned earlier, or another method not found yet. There also needs to be a concerted effort among gun owners to make sure they are responsible for their guns, so they don't get into the wrong hands, which I think most of us are already doing.

edit: also, since you mentioned your Savage rifle. My new one is a .22-250 (.22 caliber, but with some more oomph behind it), with a 3-9x40 Buckmaster scope, that I am planning to use for coyote hunting. For full disclosure, I also own a Remington 870 .20 gauge shotgun, Remington 870 .12 gauge shotgun, Weatherby SAS .12 gauge sluggun, and a 1928 Springfield .20 gauge single-shot shotgun(antique and not in shooting condition). Soon to get a S&W .357 Magnum Revolver, and possibly a 1911 .45.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Yeah....but you can't stop private sales. If someone wants to sell a gun to someone for cash, how is it even remotely possible to regulate that? Sure, it is possible to say that if you are caught with a gun that isn't registered to you it is illegal, but I don't see that preventing any crazy people from killing anyone, it just makes it that much more difficult for those of us that own and use firearms responsibly to buy them.

Does it not also make it much more difficult for those who will use firearms irresponsibly to buy them? And should options not be discussed that may identify those irresponsible ones and deter them from obtaining guns even if it creates a little more inconvenience for the responsible ones?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Does it not also make it much more difficult for those who will use firearms irresponsibly to buy them? And should options not be discussed that may identify those irresponsible ones and deter them from obtaining guns even if it creates a little more inconvenience for the responsible ones?
If closing that loophole would actually keep guns out of hands of the crazy people, I'd agree. I just don't think it will do that.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

DUH!!!! yet rover thinks that 'family' will gladly hand over their kids to the state to institutionalize!! i can't believe i keep reading him think that is a good idea.

I think you are putting words in his mouth. I think there would be a lot of parents / siblings etc that would want to get their family members the psychological help that they need, if there were something legitimate available.

Did you see the link on this very subject that OP posted a couple of days ago?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Yeah....but you can't stop private sales. If someone wants to sell a gun to someone for cash, how is it even remotely possible to regulate that? Sure, it is possible to say that if you are caught with a gun that isn't registered to you it is illegal, but I don't see that preventing any crazy people from killing anyone, it just makes it that much more difficult for those of us that own and use firearms responsibly to buy them.

Why is owning a non-registered firearm considered responsible? How much more difficult would it be to buy a gun in a private sale if you need to register? Guess how long it took to sign over the title of the last car I sold. ;)
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I think you are putting words in his mouth. I think there would be a lot of parents / siblings etc that would want to get their family members the psychological help that they need, if there were something legitimate available.

Did you see the link on this very subject that OP posted a couple of days ago?

if it's quiet and in house? perhaps, sure.

if they disappear? go away? no way.

and giving up the ability to say 'enough'? nope. if you are a 'danger' you can't leave when you want or you feel youre now 'ok'. doesn't work that way.
 
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