2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

As NPR put it, the definition of "assault weapon" is fairly nebulous. But regulating large capacity clips/magazines is fairly straightforward, just pick a number as the cutoff point. I'd be ok starting out by simply targetting those.

I don't find it objectionable to limit the size of clips/magazines. Most states do that for hunting purposes anyway.

But I don't want any politicians telling me that new regulation will eliminate or even reduce the chance of events like Newtown occurring. There will be zero effect.

One of the things that bothers me is the reactionary nature of this debate, not just here but around the country. This need to "pass a law" so we can say we are at least trying, in Rover's words.

There are, on average, 4 children a day murdered in this country. The number usually comes in around 1400/year. That means that since the 20 children were killed in Newtown last Friday, at least statistically there have been about 20 more murdered in this country. But I don't see any politicians on tv crying crocodile tears over their deaths. In fact, other than on a local level I doubt the politicians even know they occurred.

But we get all the lights and tv trucks assembled in one place, it's time to pass a law.

We have problems in this country, but limiting the size of ammunition clips ain't going to solve them.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

What bothers me is, people that I see commenting on it don't make that distiction. There is a difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle, but when people who don't actually know what the **** they're talking about start shooting off their mouths it is obvious that they have no clue what that distinction is.

See I think this is a very important point. People say "assault rifle" but they don't really know what that is.

To some extent I would be guilty of this. I don't currently own any guns, and my gun experience is limited to summers in Maine with my grandfather and neighbors etc. So wihtout doing research, I can't talk intelligently about what is available out there now...... My experience is enough though that I "get it" when it comes to hunting etc etc.

IIRC, the shotguns I had experience with had to be loaded one round at a time. Certinally there is something reasonable between that and a 30 round clip that would fufill the needs of the hunters etc?

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Lots of hyperbole here. Nobody is saying "ban guns". What we are saying is make sure those seeking to obtain guns have both a cooling off period and a background check. This isn't taking away anybody's guns unless you're a criminal or you're insane. People say that gun ownership is a constitutional right. So is voting, and if you can lose that right for whatever reason (criminal behavior for example) you can also lose the right to own a gun.

Next, nobody is saying this will prevent all crime. People can find an old unregistered handgun. They could also steal one. However, you have a better chance of identifying the problematic people if every legal sale goes through a check. Again, not every insane person has the presence of mind to acquire a firearm discreetly.

Finally, to the point of hurting a child or parents feelings if the school requests a mental health evaluation because they're talking to themselves in class or making threats about blowing up the building, my answer is "too bad". Way too much coddling going on these days, and if people need help they should get it. This everybody gets a trophy so nobody gets their feelings hurt is stupid and not helping anybody.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I don't find it objectionable to limit the size of clips/magazines. Most states do that for hunting purposes anyway.

But I don't want any politicians telling me that new regulation will eliminate or even reduce the chance of events like Newtown occurring. There will be zero effect.

One of the things that bothers me is the reactionary nature of this debate, not just here but around the country. This need to "pass a law" so we can say we are at least trying, in Rover's words.

There are, on average, 4 children a day murdered in this country. The number usually comes in around 1400/year. That means that since the 20 children were killed in Newtown last Friday, at least statistically there have been about 20 more murdered in this country. But I don't see any politicians on tv crying crocodile tears over their deaths. In fact, other than on a local level I doubt the politicians even know they occurred.

But we get all the lights and tv trucks assembled in one place, it's time to pass a law.

We have problems in this country, but limiting the size of ammunition clips ain't going to solve them.

We don't know that there will be zero effect. As far as we know the guns used in Newtown were all legally owned by the attackers mother. Say hypothetically, she did not have easy access to the type of weapons, or at least size of the ammo clips used.... perhaps he still goes into the school but the fact of him having to re-load sooner gives someone the opportunity to tackle him. Still a horrible situation, but perhaps not quite as bad.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

We don't know that there will be zero effect. As far as we know the guns used in Newtown were all legally owned by the attackers mother. Say hypothetically, she did not have easy access to the type of weapons, or at least size of the ammo clips used.... perhaps he still goes into the school but the fact of him having to re-load sooner gives someone the opportunity to tackle him. Still a horrible situation, but perhaps not quite as bad.

I don't think the number of cartridges in the ammo clips played a role in the number of victims at Newtown, Columbine, V. Tech or anywhere else. It is almost entirely dependent upon the age and concentration of the victims, and how long it takes for the first responders to show up so the idiot can get around to committing suicide. They almost never end because someone tackles the shooter as they are reloading. That's what happens in the movies.

Why were there more victims at Newtown than at Columbine? At Columbine you had twice the number of shooters, and they were using the same types of weapons?

The primary difference was the victims at Columbine were high school students. They had the cognitive and physical ability to flee, hide or try to avoid the killers. A six or seven year old confronted with this kind of horror is probably more likely to just stand there and start crying or hide in the corner of the room. It has nothing to do with the types of weapons or the speed with which the killer can shoot, reload, etc... It has everything to do with who and where are your victims.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

It has nothing to do with the types of weapons or the speed with which the killer can shoot, reload, etc... It has everything to do with who and where are your victims.

So if he had the .12 guage shotgun that I learned to shoot with as a teenager, that had to be re-loaded for each individual shot the same exact number of people would have died in Newtown?

 

[mookie1995]

So if he had the .12 guage shotgun that I learned to shoot with as a teenager, that had to be re-loaded for each individual bullet the same exact number of people would have died in Newtown?

He has a shotgun with those little kids huddled up he could have taken out two or three with one shot. Numbers could have been higher.
If he wasn't a ***** and shot himself at the sound of the fits siren he could have taken more.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

IIRC, the shotguns I had experience with had to be loaded one round at a time. Certinally there is something reasonable between that and a 30 round clip that would fufill the needs of the hunters etc?

Well, I don't think shotguns are the problem here, I have never seen a shotgun with a clip that holds more than 5 or 6 shells. I don't think they exist, unless someone custom made one. Most shotguns don't even have clips, but some do.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

In the Czech Republic, in 2010, there were exactly two gun-related murders. In 2000, which had the highest level, 20. How tough do you suppose their gun laws are?

 

[ericredaxe]

Well, I don't think shotguns are the problem here, I have never seen a shotgun with a clip that holds more than 5 or 6 shells. I don't think they exist, unless someone custom made one. Most shotguns don't even have clips, but some do.

Yeah that is my point (maybe not expressed well)

 

[The Exiled One]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I don't think the number of cartridges in the ammo clips played a role in the number of victims at Newtown, Columbine, V. Tech or anywhere else.

Well, I don't know about Newtown, Columbine, or Virginia Tech, but less people died in Tucson because Loughner was tackled when he stopped to reload. He had a 33 round clip. How many people died after round number 10 was fired?

Here's something that I find tragically ironic. Despite the fact that you can purchase a shotgun with a magazine that can hold more, many states only permit you to have three shells loaded when hunting ducks. In fact, in many states, you even have to install a plug in your magazine if it's capable of holding more than three.

No person shall take migratory game birds:

With a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells, unless it is plugged with a one-piece filler which limits the capacity of the gun to three shells. The filler must be such that it cannot be removed without disassembling the gun.

http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/hunting_waterfowl.aspx

That, to me, is entirely messed up. We like to give our ducks a fighting chance, but if the gun is designed to kill people, the sky's the limit.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I love how we're all looking to limit magazine sizes, method of reload, or even the legal existence of weapons, yet no one is taking into account the black market. Pot's illegal in this country (at least in most places), yet people still smoke it. During prohibition, you had speakeasies and bootleggers. If you ban guns, do you really think that people aren't going to figure out a way to get one?

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I love how we're all looking to limit magazine sizes, method of reload, or even the legal existence of weapons, yet no one is taking into account the black market. Pot's illegal in this country (at least in most places), yet people still smoke it. During prohibition, you had speakeasies and bootleggers. If you ban guns, do you really think that people aren't going to figure out a way to get one?

Agreed. I could probably find an illegal gun right now for sale on the street, within an hour. And that is before the black market gets saturated because there are no longer any legal methods to purchase. I can't even imagine how much crime rates would skyrocket it that happened.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Agreed. I could probably find an illegal gun right now for sale on the street, within an hour. And that is before the black market gets saturated because there are no longer any legal methods to purchase. I can't even imagine how much crime rates would skyrocket it that happened.

Technically they would go up as it is, because the ownership of the firearm would become a crime.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Well, I don't know about Newtown, Columbine, or Virginia Tech, but less people died in Tucson because Loughner was tackled when he stopped to reload. He had a 33 round clip. How many people died after round number 10 was fired?

I don't know. I didn't see the answer in your link. Did I miss it?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

With all this gun control stuff, senators like Schumer and Feinstein wouldn't conceal and carry, right?

 

[The Exiled One]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I love how we're all looking to limit magazine sizes, method of reload, or even the legal existence of weapons, yet no one is taking into account the black market. Pot's illegal in this country (at least in most places), yet people still smoke it. During prohibition, you had speakeasies and bootleggers. If you ban guns, do you really think that people aren't going to figure out a way to get one?

I was hoping somebody would bring up the black market argument. Illegal gun sales are watched WAY more closely than legal gun sales. If Lanza (or his mom), Loughner, Harris or Klebold attempted to purchase an ILLEGAL high-capacity clip, odds are much higher they would've been discovered. They all went with weapons and magazine sizes that could be purchased legally for that reason.

 

[mookie1995]

I don't know. I didn't see the answer in your link. Did I miss it?

I think he just underlined for effect

 

[The Exiled One]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I don't know. I didn't see the answer in your link. Did I miss it?

Yes, you did. Ctrl+F then type in "reload"

 

[Rover]

Agreed. I could probably find an illegal gun right now for sale on the street, within an hour. And that is before the black market gets saturated because there are no longer any legal methods to purchase. I can't even imagine how much crime rates would skyrocket it that happened.

I'm sorry but Flagg's looney libertarianism aside, this doesn't make sense. While I concede you may very well have connections for this sort of thing, the vast, vast majority of people can't walk down a street and purchase an illegal firearm. What will people do, go find a project in the hood, whip out a megaphone and shout out that you need a piece? Or maybe approach every kid wearing baggy pants and a Raiders cap? Do that and here's what will happen, in the order of most likely 1) you'll get told to eff off, 2) you'll get mugged and beaten up, 3) someone will call the police on you.

Flagg, I appreciate your consistancy on these issues, but you live in a world where if something can't be completely stopped we should just legalize it. The answer to that is F no. I don't want to live in a place where people are openly using heroin and meth and everybody else is powerless to do anything about it because its all legal. Likewise while all gun crimes won't be stopped with background checks you will most likely stop more than you do now by using a system that's already in place. That's the standard, not "well if it doesn't solve every problem lets not do it". There's a reason why libertarians are widely held up for ridicule, and its not becuase of the two party system. Its because their whole take on everything is certifiably insane.