What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
I was hoping somebody would bring up the black market argument. Illegal gun sales are watched WAY more closely than legal gun sales. If Lanza (or his mom), Loughner, Harris or Klebold attempted to purchase an ILLEGAL high-capacity clip, odds are much higher they would've been discovered. They all went with weapons and magazine sizes that could be purchased legally for that reason.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. They could have been out of the country and smuggled something in (after all, Harris went to Stafford Middle School in Plattsburgh NY; I would assume a family member was in the Air Force at the time), or you could have found someone who is a bit better at not getting caught. After all, if illegal gun sales are watched way more closely than legal gun sales, then how are we seeing all of this gun violence in Chicago? How about a hit-and-run in San Francisco a few years ago involving most of a family that Gavin Newsom covered up and resulted in a $5,000 donation from the Savage Legal Defense Fund while he was fighting his British banishment? By trying to go after the black market, you're basically trying to do something impossible.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Not necessarily. They could have been out of the country and smuggled something in (after all, Harris went to Stafford Middle School in Plattsburgh NY; I would assume a family member was in the Air Force at the time), or you could have found someone who is a bit better at not getting caught. After all, if illegal gun sales are watched way more closely than legal gun sales, then how are we seeing all of this gun violence in Chicago? How about a hit-and-run in San Francisco a few years ago involving most of a family that Gavin Newsom covered up and resulted in a $5,000 donation from the Savage Legal Defense Fund while he was fighting his British banishment? By trying to go after the black market, you're basically trying to do something impossible.
Click to expand...
I concede your points, but you've entirely missed mine. Concerning these massacres, these people don't want to get busted doing something "kinda" illegal before they've had their chance to do their horrific deed. Case in point, if you knew that you'd be going out in a blaze of glory next week, why not shoplift some booze? Why not pee in public? Why not steal the first cool bike you see? The answer is, you can't pull off your massacre if you're in jail for something else.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Rover said:
I'm sorry but Flagg's looney libertarianism aside, this doesn't make sense. While I concede you may very well have connections for this sort of thing, the vast, vast majority of people can't walk down a street and purchase an illegal firearm. What will people do, go find a project in the hood, whip out a megaphone and shout out that you need a piece? Or maybe approach every kid wearing baggy pants and a Raiders cap? Do that and here's what will happen, in the order of most likely 1) you'll get told to eff off, 2) you'll get mugged and beaten up, 3) someone will call the police on you.

Flagg, I appreciate your consistancy on these issues, but you live in a world where if something can't be completely stopped we should just legalize it. The answer to that is F no. I don't want to live in a place where people are openly using heroin and meth and everybody else is powerless to do anything about it because its all legal. Likewise while all gun crimes won't be stopped with background checks you will most likely stop more than you do now by using a system that's already in place. That's the standard, not "well if it doesn't solve every problem lets not do it". There's a reason why libertarians are widely held up for ridicule, and its not becuase of the two party system. Its because their whole take on everything is certifiably insane.
Click to expand...

Why don't we take a look at a case study, such as the Czech Republic. In the early 90's, right after the Velvet Revolution (Czechoslovakia's version of tearing down the wall), there was plenty of crime going on, especially involving weapons. The Communist Party of course prohibited weapons. Once the government came around (eventually dissolving in 1993, but the policies still continued after that), there were beliefs that perhaps, instead of limiting weapons because they would be available anyway by means of the black market, let's just allow people to own them. Since the policy has taken place, there has been a significantly smaller percentage of gun violence in the Czech Republic since the Velvet Revolution and Václav Havel taking over.

Still not understanding why that is? Let's take a look at an indirectly related case study: college students and alcohol. We're on a forum about college hockey, after all, so it should be easily understandable. Underclassmen under 21 partying is, according to state laws, illegal. Yet, they still do it. In addition, there is this uncanny desire to want to partake in such an illegal activity. Once you turn 21, sure you may still party with the red solo cup, but after the first couple of times of "w00t I can do this legally", the novelty really does wear off. In the long run, you end up looking at doing this as something a bit passé.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
I concede your points, but you've entirely missed mine. Concerning these massacres, these people don't want to get busted doing something "kinda" illegal before they've had their chance to do their horrific deed. Case in point, if you knew that you'd be going out in a blaze of glory next week, why not shoplift some booze? Why not pee in public? Why not steal the first cool bike you see? The answer is, you can't pull off your massacre if you're in jail for something else.
Click to expand...

Metaphorically speaking, you took a piece of rope, made a loop, and are trying to sell it off as a circle. The same point that you just made about "going out in a blaze of glory" could be applied to the first thing involving a prison sentence.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

bigblue_dl said:
Well, I don't think shotguns are the problem here, I have never seen a shotgun with a clip that holds more than 5 or 6 shells. I don't think they exist, unless someone custom made one. Most shotguns don't even have clips, but some do.
Click to expand...
Their are pumps that will hold more than 5 with the simple removal of a plug, for hunting in Maine 5 shells is it but remove that plug and it might hold as much as 8? Never seen one but I've heard it can be done.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Slap Shot said:
Why is owning a non-registered firearm considered responsible? How much more difficult would it be to buy a gun in a private sale if you need to register? Guess how long it took to sign over the title of the last car I sold. ;)
Click to expand...

Good call and towards a solution.

I don't buy the 'if we can't cure cancer...why bother doing anything about it' argument.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Metaphorically speaking, you took a piece of rope, made a loop, and are trying to sell it off as a circle. The same point that you just made about "going out in a blaze of glory" could be applied to the first thing involving a prison sentence.
Click to expand...
True in most circumstances, but not in the case of a murder-suicide. Nobody steals a bike then commits suicide to keep from getting caught. Many suicides occur after a period of "normal" behavior because the individual is committed to their fate and they don't want to be stopped before they can carry it out.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
True in most circumstances, but not in the case of a murder-suicide. Nobody steals a bike then commits suicide to keep from getting caught. Many suicides occur after a period of "normal" behavior because the individual is committed to their fate and they don't want to be stopped before they can carry it out.
Click to expand...

Suicides could also happen after a brief period of remorse. After all, how many people can live with pulling a trigger on another human? Don't get me started on the whole "temporary insanity" thing, either (not sure if you read anything by John Grisham or not). They aren't like suicide bombers, either, which I think is the angle that is trying to be sold here.

I doubt we'll know, because there aren't too many who witness the gunman turning on himself/herself.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

walrus said:
How is it a solution?
Click to expand...

Gun registration? Its an action that helps address the larger situation...as I said 'towards a solution'.

It's not just talking about it...and ultimately doing nothing.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

5mn_Major said:
Gun registration? Its an action that helps address the larger situation...as I said 'towards a solution'.

It's not just talking about it...and ultimately doing nothing.
Click to expand...

How does it address stealing an unregistered gun and then going postal?
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
Why don't we take a look at a case study, such as the Czech Republic. In the early 90's, right after the Velvet Revolution (Czechoslovakia's version of tearing down the wall), there was plenty of crime going on, especially involving weapons. The Communist Party of course prohibited weapons. Once the government came around (eventually dissolving in 1993, but the policies still continued after that), there were beliefs that perhaps, instead of limiting weapons because they would be available anyway by means of the black market, let's just allow people to own them. Since the policy has taken place, there has been a significantly smaller percentage of gun violence in the Czech Republic since the Velvet Revolution and Václav Havel taking over.

Still not understanding why that is? Let's take a look at an indirectly related case study: college students and alcohol. We're on a forum about college hockey, after all, so it should be easily understandable. Underclassmen under 21 partying is, according to state laws, illegal. Yet, they still do it. In addition, there is this uncanny desire to want to partake in such an illegal activity. Once you turn 21, sure you may still party with the red solo cup, but after the first couple of times of "w00t I can do this legally", the novelty really does wear off. In the long run, you end up looking at doing this as something a bit passé.
Click to expand...

While there are certainly lessons to be learned from other countries, bear in mind also vast differences between the Czech population and experience and that of the US. I'm not sure there's any parallels to be drawn between the two. It would be akin to me saying gun crimes are lower in Britain because guns aren't allowed. That's most likely true but instituting a gun ban wouldn't work at this point.

Regarding booze, again with DUI's and sobriety traps. Following a pure "don't do anything except prosecute the crime" mentality, nobody would be arrested for DUI until after they crashed their car. That's no comfort to the person or their family who's kissing the front end of the boozer's vehicle when it ends up in your front seat. Instead, you can lug these people BEFORE they commit a crime against others, and society is better off. Same concept here. While you won't bag all illegal gun obtainers, much like all DUI cases don't get caught, you'll get more than if you sit around with your thumb up your @ ss.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Suicides could also happen after a brief period of remorse. After all, how many people can live with pulling a trigger on another human? Don't get me started on the whole "temporary insanity" thing, either (not sure if you read anything by John Grisham or not). They aren't like suicide bombers, either, which I think is the angle that is trying to be sold here.

I doubt we'll know, because there aren't too many who witness the gunman turning on himself/herself.
Click to expand...
Even so, I think my initial argument is still pretty solid: In the case of the aggregate result of these types of massacres, legally smaller magazine sizes have a reasonable likelihood of sparing lives, and, that this likelihood is at least equal to or greater than legally increased magazine capacities' ability to save lives.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Rover said:
While there are certainly lessons to be learned from other countries, bear in mind also vast differences between the Czech population and experience and that of the US. I'm not sure there's any parallels to be drawn between the two. It would be akin to me saying gun crimes are lower in Britain because guns aren't allowed. That's most likely true but instituting a gun ban wouldn't work at this point.

Regarding booze, again with DUI's and sobriety traps. Following a pure "don't do anything except prosecute the crime" mentality, nobody would be arrested for DUI until after they crashed their car. That's no comfort to the person or their family who's kissing the front end of the boozer's vehicle when it ends up in your front seat. Instead, you can lug these people BEFORE they commit a crime against others, and society is better off. Same concept here. While you won't bag all illegal gun obtainers, much like all DUI cases don't get caught, you'll get more than if you sit around with your thumb up your @ ss.
Click to expand...

Where in my second case study did I say ANYTHING about a vehicle being involved? Read it again before I respond, and don't get caught in the talking points state of mind.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

walrus said:
Cars don't get stolen when they are registered, don't get resold again either.
Click to expand...

So the 1.2 million cars stolen in 2006 didn't happen, and all of a sudden carjacking is completely off the radar?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
Even so, I think my initial argument is still pretty solid: In the case of the aggregate result of these types of massacres, legally smaller magazine sizes have a reasonable likelihood of sparing lives, and, that this likelihood is at least equal to or greater than legally increased magazine capacities' ability to save lives.
Click to expand...

My argument is also still pretty solid: Legislating the size of a magazine does not create an inability to obtain or engineer something of a larger size outside of the realm of the law. I believe it was earlier in the thread mentioning something about a plug being removed from a shotgun to allow for more ammunition; I don't know the exact mechanics of that loading, but why couldn't you fairly easily fabricate an extension to allow for more ammo? Didn't Mr. Harris also use a sawed-off shotgun in his assault?

The point is that you could legislate until you're blue in the face, but it's still just empty words. Perhaps something other than the pistol or the ammo is the problem.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
How does it address stealing an unregistered gun and then going postal?
Click to expand...

It doesn't...but there are also murders committed by guns that are purchased yet not registered. If we hold out for one solution that solves everything...we'll never fix anything.

When you walk into a store...there are signs saying 'we have cameras watching you'. It's a proven fact that this messaging that 'we're watching' drastically cuts down on shop lifting. Telling a would be murder in advance that 'we know that this is your gun' should deter some. And deterring a couple of murders is good enough.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top