2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Too many people from commentators to politicians to USCHO posters are taking the easy way out, which is to throw up your hands and say "oh well, nothing can be done" like they're some sort of sage for saying something so empty.

Following some of the logic I see, we shouldn't bother to criminalize the act of murder, because murder still happens despite the laws on the books. That's stupid.

We can tighten up the ability of nutjobs to get guns. The whole point is as they are irrational people generally, they may slip up and tip their hand as to what they plan on doing when they go to purchase their weapons legally (and are hopefullly denied). That only happens if every gun sale is subject to a background check. Yes, guns can still be stolen, but you're counting on the half crazed person to be completely lucent when it comes to avoiding detection of their upcoming crime. I'm not sure they're all going to have that presense of mind.

Perhaps there is an issue in that we think something has to be done. Look, it's unfortunate that this sort of thing happened, but don't you think bringing uber-attention to it could possibly be a factor in putting the idea into other people's minds? Sometimes I wonder if a school shooter is trying to green mushroom the last person who did it (that's 1-up for you non-VG nerds). When we had an unfortunate incident at RPI that closed school, a friend and I happened to go do something at a place where we frequented. Mostly it was to get the mind off of the tragedy, but I think one lesson we can learn is that life will go on and instead of dwelling on the past, look towards the future.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Following some of the logic I see, we shouldn't bother to criminalize the act of murder, because murder still happens despite the laws on the books. That's stupid.

We pass a law making it a crime to murder someone. Makes sense, I think everyone agrees. But as a few of us have suggested, it hasn't stopped murder from happening. In fact, if you were to follow the logic of some, the mayhem is only increasing.

That's what some of us are suggesting. You can't just legislate away criminal or psychotic behavior. If they're going to commit a criminal or psychotic act, they'll do so whether you've passed a law on it or not. All of this discussion about gun laws is just so much political grandstanding that really will have no practical effect. Just give us the laws necessary to put these clowns away for life, or even end their own lives if that's your preference, assuming they don't take the cowards way out. Nothing more is either necessary or effective.

I've taken it one step further and said that if we'd just ignore these idiots, and not turn them into latenight news celebrities we might at least cause one of them to reconsider.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

We pass a law making it a crime to murder someone. Makes sense, I think everyone agrees. But as a few of us have suggested, it hasn't stopped murder from happening. In fact, if you were to follow the logic of some, the mayhem is only increasing.

That's what some of us are suggesting. You can't just legislate away criminal or psychotic behavior. If they're going to commit a criminal or psychotic act, they'll do so whether you've passed a law on it or not. All of this discussion about gun laws is just so much political grandstanding that really will have no practical effect. Just give us the laws necessary to put these clowns away for life, or even end their own lives if that's your preference, assuming they don't take the cowards way out. Nothing more is either necessary or effective.

I've taken it one step further and said that if we'd just ignore these idiots, and not turn them into latenight news celebrities we might at least cause one of them to reconsider.

This. Mental illness is just a human defect, in a similar way that cancer or heart disease is a defect. It's just that cancer or heart disease kills the person with the defect; these sorts of mental defects kill others around the affected person instead. Any society so secure that such people cannot get their hands on weapons would not be a society worth living in. I'm not saying that there aren't some perfectly reasonable things we can do to make it *harder* for them to get weapons, but let's not pretend that such restrictions will actually solve anything. It's impossible to make it so that they can't get weapons, and since they can get weapons, they *will* get weapons.

Someone posted a story earlier of the worst school killing in US history - in Michigan in the 1920's, done with explosives.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I love how you can never fully eliminate drunk driving, and yet no one ever just throws their hands up and says "well, we can't have a BAC limits because people are just going to find a way to drive while impaired!"

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I love how you can never fully eliminate drunk driving, and yet no one ever just throws their hands up and says "well, we can't have a BAC limits because people are just going to find a way to drive while impaired!"

Some of us do, albeit indirectly. There's not much we can do if a state wants to regulate that, but the feds bullying a state into it by means of federal highway funding is just plain wrong.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Some of us do, albeit indirectly. There's not much we can do if a state wants to regulate that, but the feds bullying a state into it by means of federal highway funding is just plain wrong.

+1

-1 to the States for allowing it to happen - and regularly so.

-------------------------

Rover

I agree with you. Boehner makes the deal (he's negotiating with himself. He should hire Don Fehr or Scott Boras) that is currently being reported, he's toast. I wonder if it will pass the House even with his "backing".

Now let's have some fun -- IIRC the Speaker does not have to be a member of the House, so let's put Newt in there (a) just to tweak El Presidente and (b) we may actually get a meaningful legislation done.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I love how you can never fully eliminate drunk driving, and yet no one ever just throws their hands up and says "well, we can't have a BAC limits because people are just going to find a way to drive while impaired!"

That's a horrible analogy. Hundreds of thousands of people would drive drunk if there were no legal penalties, so if you can coerce even a small fraction of them to quit, you're saving thousands of lives. 1-2 people per year "go postal," and further limits on guns will stop exactly zero of them.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

+1

-1 to the States for allowing it to happen - and regularly so.

It actually came up to a few courts. This one is in relation to the National Speed Limit, but is the same precedent: https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/884/884.F2d.445.88-2486.html

I heard that Tennessee has actually denied the extra highway funds in order to keep open containers.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

For the record, I'm actually massively IN FAVOR of gun control laws for lots of other reasons. I just don't think increased gun control will be at all effective for stopping this particular sort of tragedy.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Drunk driving with destruction of property should be jail time.

Drunk driving that causes death is murder. Premiditated. You knowingly drink and continue to drink. Then your actions cause death. This should be automatic death penalty.

 

[BassAle]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

While I don't think any of this would have prevented this tragedy, here are my current thoughts on gun control:

1) Retroactive ban on assault rifles (mandatory buy-back program)
2) Ban on high capacity magazines
3) Required registration of all firearms (caught with unregistered firearm = felony with mandatory sentence)
4) Private gun sales through licensed brokers only who preform comprehensive background check and enforce waiting period
5) Ammo sales must match firearm registration. you can't buy ammo without owning a registered firearm, and the ammo must match the type on the registration
6) 14 day waiting period for large ammunition purchases
7) Ammo sales tracked (identify people buying up large quantities, cross reference with high-risk patients undergoing treatment for mental illness)
8) Mandatory reporting of stolen firearms


Also, have the balls to discuss whether the founding fathers may have made a mistake when it came to the second amendment. I'm all for allowing people to have hunting rifles (I think they should be bolt action), and a handgun can have a legitimate self-defense use (although a handgun is far more likely to be used to kill a family member or commit some other crime than to be used for self-defense). For what it is worth, I own a gun that was passed on to me from my grandfather via my father. I've used it for target shooting a few times, and have enjoyed it, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if I never shot it again.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

While I don't think any of this would have prevented this tragedy, here are my current thoughts on gun control:

1) Retroactive ban on assault rifles (mandatory buy-back program)
2) Ban on high capacity magazines
3) Required registration of all firearms (caught with unregistered firearm = felony with mandatory sentence)
4) Private gun sales through licensed brokers only who preform comprehensive background check and enforce waiting period
5) Ammo sales must match firearm registration. you can't buy ammo without owning a registered firearm, and the ammo must match the type on the registration
6) 14 day waiting period for large ammunition purchases
7) Ammo sales tracked (identify people buying up large quantities, cross reference with high-risk patients undergoing treatment for mental illness)
8) Mandatory reporting of stolen firearms


Also, have the balls to discuss whether the founding fathers may have made a mistake when it came to the second amendment. I'm all for allowing people to have hunting rifles (I think they should be bolt action), and a handgun can have a legitimate self-defense use (although a handgun is far more likely to be used to kill a family member or commit some other crime than to be used for self-defense). For what it is worth, I own a gun that was passed on to me from my grandfather via my father. I've used it for target shooting a few times, and have enjoyed it, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if I never shot it again.

Thanks, Hitler. Next thing we know is that hunting implements will be classified under your bans as well.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I've taken it one step further and said that if we'd just ignore these idiots, and not turn them into latenight news celebrities we might at least cause one of them to reconsider.

Along those lines:

1.Let’s look into our celebrity culture, particularly as it’s designed for and aimed at children. I don’t spend a lot of time watching this type of TV … but it seems that a preponderance of these shows center around young people who become famous .. usually by being in a rock band, a singing star, a cool guitar player, a dancer or an actor. It’s all about becoming famous. Get just a bit older and you have American Idol. It seems that every child’s goal in life should be to have everyone know your name … to be famous. It’s not enough to have a nice Collie named Lassie or a horse named Flicka. So .. if you’re not famous, does this mean you have failed? And to what ends will you then go to make sure that everyone knows your name? You are NOT, though, going to seek that fame by murdering 26 people and then killing yourself UNLESS YOU ARE SEVERLY MENTALLY ILL.


2.Then there’s this phony self-esteem movement. For quite some time now our children have been told how wonderful they are – even those clearly not wonderful. Self-esteem is not a gift. It is not given you. It is earned by actions, moral behavior and achievement. Perhaps, as a young person, if you know in hour heart and mind that you are not all that wonderful – that you have not earned all of this self-esteem the world tells you that you are entitled to – you might seek a way to show that you really do count. But, you are not going to do this by murdering 26 people and then killing yourself UNLESS YOU ARE SEVERLY MENTALLY ILL.

*from Neal Boortz

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So you're suggesting we have guys walk around elementary schools with a baseball bat to protect the students??

I'm suggesting a baseball bat in the principals office when a guy with a knife is on the loose does not equal 30 deaths. You're going to commit what you know if a crime where many will try to stop you. Someone picks up a broom and has a fighting chance against a knife. There is no better weapon than a gun for a one on one showdown or in a crowd.

First, the reason people choose to use guns is because guns are available, they're easy to use, you are somewhat "detached" from your victim (you don't actually have to physically touch them to kill them), they are popularly depicted as devices used to kill people in movies, tv and video games, and a variety of other reasons. That doesn't mean, though, that if you banish guns killing will go away, or even mass killing. Mass killings have existed since humans existed in one form or another, and there hasn't been a direct correlation with mass executions and the invention of firearms made, at least as far as I've seen.

If knives are just as good as guns...we then can have gun control for 'good, honest folk' who are only allowed to carry knives, but we don't worry too much about guns falling into the hands of criminals. Its a good thing you have that knife to defend your family against that criminal breaking into your house with a gun. Afterall, knives are just as good as guns...right?

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I would use a chainsaw if guns were banned (assume I could start it). Since it makes a louder noise than a swinging knife it would increase the fear and discombobulate any would-be hero trying to disarm me with a broom or bat.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Drunk driving with destruction of property should be jail time.

Drunk driving that causes death is murder. Premiditated. You knowingly drink and continue to drink. Then your actions cause death. This should be automatic death penalty.

As the Liberals on this board will assert, that is cruel and unusual punishment. And the SCOTUS will not condone a 100% certainty of a death penalty.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

If knives are just as good as guns...we then can have gun control for 'good, honest folk' who are only allowed to carry knives, but we don't worry too much about guns falling into the hands of criminals. Its a good thing you have that knife to defend your family against that criminal breaking into your house with a gun. Afterall, knives are just as good as guns...right?

They're actually better for the use I make of them, which is typically restricted to cutting my meat and buttering my bread. But getting rid of both guns and knives will do nothing to control psychotic behavior.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

They're actually better for the use I make of them, which is typically restricted to cutting my meat and buttering my bread. But getting rid of both guns and knives will do nothing to control psychotic behavior.

Isn't that how the whole phenomenon of "bath salts" came about?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

They're actually better for the use I make of them, which is typically restricted to cutting my meat and buttering my bread. But getting rid of both guns and knives will do nothing to control psychotic behavior.

We can't control psychotic behavior... so change nothing about the potential consequences of psychotic behavior?

Listen, I get that there's nothing our current laws could have done about Sandy Hook, but I truly don't get why there is so much hesitance to revisiting the federal assault weapons ban.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

They're actually better for the use I make of them, which is typically restricted to cutting my meat and buttering my bread. But getting rid of both guns and knives will do nothing to control psychotic behavior.

Nope. But if Lanza didn't have access to a gun, we'd be talking about a much lower death count.