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2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to sound hateful. Just don't like rankings. I just think 32 or even 16 playdown would only take 4 or 5 weekends and if you eliminate one non or 2 non conference weekends it wouldn't be any different as far as expense. Only true way not to have doubts and would really create interest.

As far as the RPI. I do feel UMD is a top 8-10 team. Their top line is that good and I would think they could beat many teams ahead of them in the RPI. The WCHA is penalized for how strong of a conference it is. If you add 3 or 4 more bottom dwellers as the east teams have the WCHA records would be better and you would see 4, 5, or even 6 teams in the top ten rankings all year.

WCHFan -- I agree with the criticism of the RPI and your assessment of the WCHA. But to prove this point, you don't need to add three weak teams to the WCHA and you don't need to play a 32-team tournament. We have a system called KRACH and another system called the Rutter rankings which say that the WCHA has 5 of the top 10 and 6 of the top 11 teams, and these systems actually estimate a model that rewards teams when they perform better against teams of similar quality.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

After seeing 32 team brackets. I'll have to agree it might be too large.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

While were on the subject, here's some new discussion on KRACH vs. RPI. It's really long though.

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I believe the RPI is particularly ill-suited for women's ice hockey. Two present characteristics of women's college hockey pose problems for the RPI: [1] a low share of interregional games (6 of 37-39 games for a typical WCHA contender), and [2] a Western region that is stronger on average than the Eastern region. This combination poses difficulties for the RPI's calculation of strength-of-schedule. Relative to rating systems with firmer statistical foundations, the RPI typically underrates middle-of-the-pack WCHA teams (3rd-6th place) by roughly three or four places in the national standings. This is a nontrivial discrepancy for an 8-team tournament. The RPI also influences the "record vs. teams under consideration" selection criterion, because the RPI is used to determine the 12 teams under consideration.

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Problems with the RPI

To illustrate the problems with the RPI, it's helpful to consider a concrete, yet simplified example. Suppose you are comparing two teams, call them team E and team W, with similar results, except Team W plays several games against Wisconsin (a team with a 90% win pct.) and team E plays several games against Boston College (a team with a 70% win pct.). Let's further suppose that team W has posted a 15% win percentage in its games against Wisconsin, while team E has posted a 30% win percentage against Boston College. This scenario may approximate what the committee would face in comparing teams like North Dakota and UMD against Northeastern and Boston University this season.

How do you compare these two teams with different schedules? If Wisconsin and Boston College played equally challenging schedules, then the evaluation is simple: an average team should beat Wisconsin 10% of the time and an average team should beat Boston College 30% of the time. Team W beat Wisconsin 15% of the time and is clearly above average, while Team E beat Boston College 30% of the time and is clearly average. Does the RPI get this right? No! Team E has a 15% edge over team W in win percentage, while team W has a 20% edge over team E in opponents' record. But win percentage gets a 35% weight in the RPI, while opponents' record gets only a 24% weight. 15%*35% > 20%*24%, so team E gets the edge, even though team W is clearly the better team in this example.

The prior paragraph assumed that Wisconsin and Boston College played equally challenging schedules, so we assumed away the impact of the 46%-weighted component of the RPI which considers opponents' opponents' schedules -- let's call it the "adjustment for opponents' strength-of-schedule" henceforth. Now let's assume that Wisconsin and Boston College have schedules similar to their actual schedules this season. According to the strength-of-schedule measures from both the USCHO RPI and USCHO KRACH, Wisconsin has played either the first or second toughest schedule in the country, while BC's schedule is the 7th or 10th-toughest. Considering that Wisconsin played a tougher schedule than BC, then relative to the example in the previous paragraph, there should be a better case for team W. But does the RPI's consideration of opponents' strength-of-schedule actually favor the team who played Wisconsin? No! Even though Wisconsin played a tougher schedule than BC, all that matters in determining how much credit team W gets for playing Wisconsin is the record of Wisconsin's opponents -- not the strength-of-schedule measure that places Wisconsin 2nd in the nation! It so happens that BC's opponents actually have a slightly better record than Wisconsin's opponents (see the OPWP column of Rutter's RPI). In conclusion, the RPI's adjustment for opponents' strength-of-schedule actually favors team E in this example, even though team W's opponent Wisconsin played the tougher schedule by any other measure.

The problems with the RPI described here are not some cherry-picked special cases that rarely occur in reality, but rather a significant problem for women's hockey, which exhibits a limited number of interregional games and a lack of parity between conferences. In the extreme case where one region is universally stronger than the other, but only a small fraction of games are interregional, then the RPI standings are only marginally different from simply merging the standings of each conference -- the strength-of-schedule adjustment would be almost nonexistent. The fact that the RPI's adjustment for opponents' strength-of-schedule actually favors a BC opponent over a Wisconsin opponent (even though Wisconsin clearly has the stronger schedule) illustrates that the concern I describe matters in practice.

How KRACH solves the RPI's flaws

How does a statistical model like USCHO's KRACH address the problems described above? What KRACH does is it assigns a rating to each team, such that the expected probability of a team with rating A beating a team with rating B equals A/(A+B). KRACH calculates the ratings for each team so that the estimated probabilities of game outcomes most closely match the observed outcomes. It's a simple, transparent system. It avoids the arbitrary weighting of the RPI, and it avoids the problems with the RPI described in previous paragraphs. The ratings can then be used to compute a "round-robin win percentage" (RRWP) which describes what each team's win percentage would be if each team played every other opponent exactly once -- this RRWP lends itself to a much easier interpretation than the KRACH ratings themselves.

Let's reconsider my first example of an RPI flaw, and assume that Wisconsin beats a league average team 90% of the time, and BC beats a league average team 70% of the time. The USCHO KRACH league average is normalized to 100, so such a Wisconsin team would have a KRACH rating of 900 and BC would have a KRACH of 233.3. Team E, which beats BC 30% of the time, would have a KRACH of 100 -- precisely the league average. Team W, which beats Wisconsin 15% of the time, would have a KRACH of 158.8, above the league average. KRACH would also predict that team W would win about 60% of its games against team E. So KRACH corrects the first fallacy I described.

Now let's consider my critique of the RPI's opponents' strength-of-schedule adjustment. In actuality, Wisconsin wins about 90% of its games while BC wins about 70% of its games. When we adjust these win percentages for strength of schedule, we should see a wider gap between Wisconsin and BC than 20%, since Wisconsin plays a tougher schedule than BC. Indeed, the KRACH model suggests that if the teams each played a balanced schedule, Wisconsin would win 95% of its games while BC would win 74% of its games. (Wisconsin's KRACH rating is 2303 and BC's is 320.5). Team W, which beats Wisconsin 15% of the time, would have a KRACH rating of 406 -- well above the league average -- while team E that beats BC 30% of the time would have a KRACH of 137 -- slightly above league average. Team W would be expected to beat Team E about 75% of the time. So KRACH corrects the second RPI fallacy I described.

How KRACH does not solve the RPI's flaws

One common misconception is that KRACH would correct the RPI by giving more weight to strength of schedule. As the previous examples demonstrate, the RPI's approach to calculating strength-of-schedule is flawed, and simply giving more weight to a flawed approach does not improve it. What KRACH achieves is a more accurate approach to calculating strength-of-schedule.

The misconception that KRACH fixes the RPI by giving more weight to strength-of-schedule leads to some resistance to its adoption. For example, one head coach I spoke with last year expressed a common concern that it would be impossible for eastern schools to compete under KRACH, because WCHA schools would play tougher schedules and Eastern schools couldn't afford to travel to WCHA schools. But an effective KRACH is not achieved simply by playing a difficult schedule. North Dakota and UMD are 4th and 5th in KRACH not because they simply played more games against Wisconsin and Minnesota, but because they were more successful against Wisconsin and Minnesota than anyone else. Meanwhile, a team like Cornell can achieve a KRACH higher than North Dakota and UMD, despite having never played Wisconsin and Minnesota, by beating teams of similar quality to those that beat North Dakota and UMD.

There is no inherent advantage or disadvantage of playing a tougher schedule under KRACH. One crucial advantage of improving the selection criteria is that it reduces any current or future incentive to try to game the present NCAA criteria through the choice of nonconference opponents.

The Results vs. Teams Under Consideration criterion

Replacing RPI with KRACH would improve the record vs. teams under consideration criterion by more accurately picking the top 12 teams in the country, but it would not correct the fact that this criterion is typically not adjusted for strength-of-schedule. My understanding is the committee may have some discretion in assessing the relative merits of teams' results beyond the simple W-L-T record, but such discretion would be subject to controversy. One simple solution would be to calculate a second estimation of KRACH using only the results between the top 12 teams from the original KRACH.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

North Dakota is in some danger of falling to 7th or worse in RPI without another win against Minnesota.

Even if UND goes 0-3 against Minnesota, I don't see them missing the tournament this year.
The only scenarios I see is UND hosting a game or UND traveling to Minnesota in the NCAA's
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

North Dakota and UMD are 4th and 5th in KRACH not because they simply played more games against Wisconsin and Minnesota, but because they were more successful against Wisconsin and Minnesota than anyone else.
That's true for North Dakota. The UMD case is a bit more complicated, as Bemidji State actually has a better record against Minnesota than UMD does -- neither had success against Wisconsin. While UMD and BSU are even head to head, UMD had better results than the Beavers against all of UND, OSU, and especially MSU.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

And then there's this monkey-wrench...

Univ. of North Dakota president: School will use Fighting Sioux nickname despite NCAA threat (Star Tribune)
A state law requiring the university to use its longtime nickname and logo, which shows the profile of an American Indian warrior, was repealed in November. The university has since been trying to retire the moniker, but nickname supporters filed petitions late Tuesday demanding that the issue be put to a statewide vote.

University President Robert Kelley said the school decided to resume using the name and logo to respect the state's referendum process, which requires the pro-nickname law be in effect while the secretary of state reviews the petition signatures over the next month.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

There is a lot of good and interesting discussion going on here, all I can say is I hope that at some point human beings will intervene and make some sound, rational, and fair decisions to determine the 8 teams that get to participate in the NCAA tournament this year. It seems pretty clear cut that the WCHA teams have a much more challenging schedule and it also seems clear that it is almost impossible to adequately adjust for that factor. But, at the end of the day I think the selection committee needs to make decisions to reward the girls that have earned the chance to compete for the National Title. Put aside politics and pick the best teams period. I personally think UMD "should" be in the group, but with loses to OSU and BSU they failed to seal the deal. When you see these wild fluctuations with the pairwise it seems to make it clear that it is not the best system to use. The movement of Cornell past Minny makes no sense, Minny beats UW in the 4 game series for the season and they can't hold on to their number 2 spot, come on.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

Dave, Wow! I think i appreciate you much more. Nice job!

Grandaddy, Unless UMD losses to MSU they belong. BSU and OSU are strong teams at least one game on the weekend and just need to find that consistancy and they would be deserving. UMD has one of the top lines in the country and can do damage. I'm not a UMD fan just appreciate the way they play when they're on. That being said what if BSU sweeps UMD or OSU sweeps Minny or Wisconsin. Wouldn't that be something? Never know ;):rolleyes::D
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

Dave, Wow! I think i appreciate you much more. Nice job!

Grandaddy, Unless UMD losses to MSU they belong. BSU and OSU are strong teams at least one game on the weekend and just need to find that consistancy and they would be deserving. UMD has one of the top lines in the country and can do damage. I'm not a UMD fan just appreciate the way they play when they're on. That being said what if BSU sweeps UMD or OSU sweeps Minny or Wisconsin. Wouldn't that be something? Never know ;):rolleyes::D

I think they belong as well, but they left the door open. SM certainly knows the landscape and the process, with the factors mentioned above against you already you have to win the games you are supposed to win in the WCHA, clearly the loses in the east don't have as much impact.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

When you see these wild fluctuations with the pairwise it seems to make it clear that it is not the best system to use.
I think this might be the spot to throw in the observation that fluctuations in the pairwise comparison are fluctuations in the "if the season ended today" comparison. The pairwise is not intended to be and is, as this discussion shows, quite useless as a week to week rating tool. It is intended to be an END OF SEASON tournament selection tool. I don't think it is useful to criticize Pairwise because of fluctuations which are not germane to the actual intended use of Pairwise.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

I think this might be the spot to throw in the observation that fluctuations in the pairwise comparison are fluctuations in the "if the season ended today" comparison. The pairwise is not intended to be and is, as this discussion shows, quite useless as a week to week rating tool. It is intended to be an END OF SEASON tournament selection tool. I don't think it is useful to criticize Pairwise because of fluctuations which are not germane to the actual intended use of Pairwise.
That sounds good if everything comes out in the wash. I'd just hate to have Team A make the field over Team B based on the quarterfinal series between Team C and Team D going three games instead of two, and that's the kind of effects we're seeing. Hopefully, you are correct and those swings will die down in another month.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

I think this might be the spot to throw in the observation that fluctuations in the pairwise comparison are fluctuations in the "if the season ended today" comparison. The pairwise is not intended to be and is, as this discussion shows, quite useless as a week to week rating tool. It is intended to be an END OF SEASON tournament selection tool. I don't think it is useful to criticize Pairwise because of fluctuations which are not germane to the actual intended use of Pairwise.
I agree with the point that wild fluctuations in and of themselves are not a good critique of the system.

But the fluctuations do reveal some issues in the system that could occur at the end of the season. For example, we saw last night that Northeastern's rankng fell because their win over BU knocked BU out of the top 12, and Northeastern's 3-1 record vs. BU no longer counted in the record vs. RPI top 12. That's something that could happen at the end of the season. We don't want to have situations where teams would be better off throwing games.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

I agree with the point that wild fluctuations in and of themselves are not a good critique of the system.

But the fluctuations do reveal some issues in the system that could occur at the end of the season. For example, we saw last night that Northeastern's rankng fell because their win over BU knocked BU out of the top 12, and Northeastern's 3-1 record vs. BU no longer counted in the record vs. RPI top 12. That's something that could happen at the end of the season. We don't want to have situations where teams would be better off throwing games.
And I have no trouble concurring that there are problems with the system. The particular example that you cite is troubling.

However, at the end of the season I cannot imagine any other scenario than the one that has every team, every coach, and every player trying to win every game. I cannot imagine anyone "throwing" a game.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

And I have no trouble concurring that there are problems with the system. The particular example that you cite is troubling. However, at the end of the season I cannot imagine any other scenario than the one that has every team, every coach, and every player trying to win every game. I cannot imagine anyone "throwing" a game.
Right, it would be tough to predict situations where you would benefit from losing. But they can happen. In hindsight, Wisconsin could've had an easier NCAA QF matchup last season if they lost to Minnesota in the WCHA final, since it'd have given Minnesota home ice and UMD might've been shipped to Minnesota instead of Wisconsin, but I didn't notice that at the time.
 
Minny beats UW in the 4 game series for the season and they can't hold on to their number 2 spot, come on.

I can follow the logic of UofM prevailing in the mano-a-mano combat of a four-game season series with the mighty Badgers and being ranked first. I'm having more trouble with the wisco-reasoning, which says look at two teams with reasonably similar season-long performances against comparable schedules and identify who prevailed in head-to-head competition and ignore that outcome. Instead, parse differences between performance against common opponents and rank UofW first. Then double-back and use the previously ignored criterion, which is only germane to UofW and UofM, to determine who's on second -- UofM or Cornell.
 
2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

:rolleyes:So, last season there was a question as to Dartmouth deserving to be in the tournament. Many saw UND as the superior club. And they may have been. But I think MOST eventually felt Dartmouth earned their selection.

UND failed down the stretch/in the end, especially, to continue to 'surge', win games, perform on the ice. Maintain their electability if you will- when they could have. Thus sealing the deal (and their own fate). Alas and alack, they didn't (surge/win/be deserving/continue their electability, etc.) and the air went out of their balloon and Dartmouth got the bid.

It is my view they, UND, themselves lost by NOT 'surging', winning, etc., etc., while Dartmouth, at least, 'maintained' (their electability, etc., etc.) as the season came to a close. I don't expect anything different this year. I expect we will have the same scenario. Once the dust clears the right teams will have been chosen.

Over the next few weeks some teams will keep rising- winning, maintaining their 'electability'; other teams will, like UND in 2011, not sustain or worse, self-sorting the standings and tournament votes as of old by their own actions, not performing, ultimately, on the ice.

In the end we will agree the deserving teams were selected for tournament play.

This game and rightfully so, continues to be decided on the ice.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

In keeping with some earlier posts, here is a bracket with no blue and no red, seedings based on current RPI:

Bemidji at Minnesota
Clarkson at Boston College
UMD at North Dakota
Dartmouth at Mercyhurst
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

I can follow the logic of UofM prevailing in the mano-a-mano combat of a four-game season series with the mighty Badgers and being ranked first. I'm having more trouble with the wisco-reasoning, which says look at two teams with reasonably similar season-long performances against comparable schedules and identify who prevailed in head-to-head competition and ignore that outcome. Instead, parse differences between performance against common opponents and rank UofW first. Then double-back and use the previously ignored criterion, which is only germane to UofW and UofM, to determine who's on second -- UofM or Cornell.

- What's on second !.
- Who ?.
- What !.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

Is it possible with two big upsets in the ECAC and HE tourneys that the WCHA only gets two spots? That would be super cool.
 
Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Division I Bracketology

Is it possible with two big upsets in the ECAC and HE tourneys that the WCHA only gets two spots? That would be super cool.
I think that it is possible even w/o those big upsets. It's probably also possible that either ECAC or Hockey East only gets one with just the right set of events.
 
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