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2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
- Thread starter Kepler
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unofan
Well-known member
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
So an engineer is going to be good at civil rights, constitutional issues, and other non-technical problems, simply because they're an engineer?
So an engineer is going to be good at civil rights, constitutional issues, and other non-technical problems, simply because they're an engineer?
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
hey sure won't be politically correct and can't do any worse than the bunch of idiots we have there now.
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Do you really think the country would fall apart if Congress spent the next 10 years addressing only technical problems (say, for example, economic issues or health care systems) and didn't pass any legislation related to civil rights or constitutional issues? Are our current laws so bad that operating under them would be completely unworkable? What fraction of Congress's time is currently spent on civil rights and constitutional issues? If it's low, then what harm would engineers do? If it's high, then I think we've found the answer to why none of the technical issues ever get solved. We put a bunch of lawyers in Congress so it's not too surprising that they never solve technical issues - to paraphrase the old saying: when you don't have a hammer in your toolbox, no problem ever looks like a nail....
Well, they apparently won't be any worse at grammar...
Do you really think the country would fall apart if Congress spent the next 10 years addressing only technical problems (say, for example, economic issues or health care systems) and didn't pass any legislation related to civil rights or constitutional issues? Are our current laws so bad that operating under them would be completely unworkable? What fraction of Congress's time is currently spent on civil rights and constitutional issues? If it's low, then what harm would engineers do? If it's high, then I think we've found the answer to why none of the technical issues ever get solved. We put a bunch of lawyers in Congress so it's not too surprising that they never solve technical issues - to paraphrase the old saying: when you don't have a hammer in your toolbox, no problem ever looks like a nail....
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
I'm not making myself clear. It's not a bug that problem-solving is not the essence of politics in a heterogeneous society. It's intrinsic.
Engineering problems are solved. Human relations problems are negotiated. Generally speaking, people good at one skill are terrible, impatient, and clueless at the other -- or at least no better than the general population (the bad hitting pitcher problem).
Our problem right now is not bad politicians. It's good politicians representing tribal, selfish constituents. That's the legacy of a hundred years of the cult of the individual and thirty years of one side of the spectrum de-legitimizing cooperative solutions. Those ideas are useful watchdogs to preserve liberties, but they have become mindless dogma. Hence you get every GOP candidate saying they would reject a 10:1 ratio of cuts to tax increases. That's the end of compromise, hence no progress is possible short of complete domination.
The moral message of talk radio and Fox News is that absolute dominion is necessary. That used to be something you fed the idiot foot soldiers to keep their morale up as they campaigned for you. Now it's become a doctrine even of the electorate. Everything now becomes a Matter of Principle, so nothing is negotiable. That way generally lies violence. Anyway, it guarantees gridlock, since anyone who crafts a compromise will immediately be crucified.
I'm not making myself clear. It's not a bug that problem-solving is not the essence of politics in a heterogeneous society. It's intrinsic.
Engineering problems are solved. Human relations problems are negotiated. Generally speaking, people good at one skill are terrible, impatient, and clueless at the other -- or at least no better than the general population (the bad hitting pitcher problem).
Our problem right now is not bad politicians. It's good politicians representing tribal, selfish constituents. That's the legacy of a hundred years of the cult of the individual and thirty years of one side of the spectrum de-legitimizing cooperative solutions. Those ideas are useful watchdogs to preserve liberties, but they have become mindless dogma. Hence you get every GOP candidate saying they would reject a 10:1 ratio of cuts to tax increases. That's the end of compromise, hence no progress is possible short of complete domination.
The moral message of talk radio and Fox News is that absolute dominion is necessary. That used to be something you fed the idiot foot soldiers to keep their morale up as they campaigned for you. Now it's become a doctrine even of the electorate. Everything now becomes a Matter of Principle, so nothing is negotiable. That way generally lies violence. Anyway, it guarantees gridlock, since anyone who crafts a compromise will immediately be crucified.
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Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
If only that were true. If you took a poll of Congress right now, what percentage would claim that some variation of "solving society's problems" was on their list of reasons for going into public service? I *long* for the day when Congress stops trying to solve problems and just gets out of the way.
Which is why politicians (who are not good at solving technical problems) mess it up so badly when they try, no matter how good their intentions.
Isn't this an argument for throwing out the current politicians and replacing them with something else? I submit that most engineers would not take the same position on the ratio of spending cuts to tax increases - at least not unless they'd seen credible data that showed that this was likely to be the optimal solution. Why would that be so terrible again?
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
It's more of an argument for throwing out the voters.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Engineering is one big negotiation. Cost vs. quality. Lift vs. gravity. Speed vs. power. Management vs. sanity.
Engineering is one big negotiation. Cost vs. quality. Lift vs. gravity. Speed vs. power. Management vs. sanity.
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Representatives represent the hoi polloi, the common man. So if their district wants all hair to be red, by garsh, they should put forth a bill that the official hair color of the United States is red.
If the member of Congress goes against the voters' wishes, he/she needs to go back to the people and explain why they voted the way they did and then await the next election and see if the voters bought the logic.
But. Senators are SUPPOSED to represent their states first. They are (to quote / paraphrase JFK) the ambassadors of their state to the Nation. Hence, they are never addressed by name but as "the senator from Massachusetts", etc. He/she's primary (and I submit only) job is supposed make sure that their state's interests are heard in the Congress,
Representatives represent the hoi polloi, the common man. So if their district wants all hair to be red, by garsh, they should put forth a bill that the official hair color of the United States is red.
If the member of Congress goes against the voters' wishes, he/she needs to go back to the people and explain why they voted the way they did and then await the next election and see if the voters bought the logic.
Foxton
Banned
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
The Senate represents their state in the same way the House does. Difference being that in the Senate every state is equal while the House is based on population so the bigger states have more say.
So you want to repeal a certain amendment as well?
The Senate represents their state in the same way the House does. Difference being that in the Senate every state is equal while the House is based on population so the bigger states have more say.
duper
Well-known member
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Seriously, can we kill the engineer debate? The fact is, the Congress is a relatively diverse group of people. It's not like three fourths of all members are lawyers or something. A quick google search (which admittedly is no scientific study) shows me something in the neighborhood of a third are lawyers. There are all kinds of other sorts of people, which I think is exactly what you want. The problem has nothing to do with profession. I think it has to do with the kind of egotistical person that is willing to subject him or herself to the public scrutiny of a run for congress. And although I don't know a lot of engineers, most of the ones I know are frankly a little full of themselves, so I don't see that being the solution to the problem.
Seriously, can we kill the engineer debate? The fact is, the Congress is a relatively diverse group of people. It's not like three fourths of all members are lawyers or something. A quick google search (which admittedly is no scientific study) shows me something in the neighborhood of a third are lawyers. There are all kinds of other sorts of people, which I think is exactly what you want. The problem has nothing to do with profession. I think it has to do with the kind of egotistical person that is willing to subject him or herself to the public scrutiny of a run for congress. And although I don't know a lot of engineers, most of the ones I know are frankly a little full of themselves, so I don't see that being the solution to the problem.
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Maybe you're right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI
Maybe you're right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
haha. Ok, Engineers 291,127,732,552,089,547,352, Politicians 1.
haha. Ok, Engineers 291,127,732,552,089,547,352, Politicians 1.
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Also there was a certain White Star liner declared "practically unsinkable" by "Shipbuilder" magazine. Oops. Maybe those "watertight" bulkheads should have gone all the way up to A deck.
Much more recently was the collapse of this 1975' radio tower in Houston. The station I worked for and others had partnered to build the tower. None of us had signed off on it or were using it at the time of this accident. The 6 ton antenna was being raised to the top (with guys riding on it, against the rules) when a small bolt failed. The antenna fell and on its way down clipped the guy wires and took down the entire tower. I know the guy who took the pictures very well. His name is Andy Hudack, and he was out there to get video of the topping out. Those dots you see flying off the antenna on the way down are what you suspect they are. The tower has since been rebuilt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqygUApfnZg
Also there was a certain White Star liner declared "practically unsinkable" by "Shipbuilder" magazine. Oops. Maybe those "watertight" bulkheads should have gone all the way up to A deck.
Much more recently was the collapse of this 1975' radio tower in Houston. The station I worked for and others had partnered to build the tower. None of us had signed off on it or were using it at the time of this accident. The 6 ton antenna was being raised to the top (with guys riding on it, against the rules) when a small bolt failed. The antenna fell and on its way down clipped the guy wires and took down the entire tower. I know the guy who took the pictures very well. His name is Andy Hudack, and he was out there to get video of the topping out. Those dots you see flying off the antenna on the way down are what you suspect they are. The tower has since been rebuilt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqygUApfnZg
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dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
I'll concede those as well. Engineers 291,127,732,552,089,582,734, Politicians 3. (I've updated both scores)
I'll concede those as well. Engineers 291,127,732,552,089,582,734, Politicians 3. (I've updated both scores)
duper
Well-known member
duper
Well-known member
Re: 2012 Elections Part I: All Politics is Yokel
Looks like I've created a monster with my "engineers running the country" suggestion.
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