2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Kudos to North Carolina. It'll be fascinating to see Obama dance around this issue during the campaign. Everybody paying attention knows he supports it, but he's counting on fooling a lot of people who don't pay attention into thinking he's against or neutral to it. We'll see if he pulls that one off.

Luger seemed like a decent Senator, but, really, being there since 1976, it's time for some fresh blood.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It'll be fascinating to see Obama dance around this issue during the campaign. Everybody paying attention knows he supports it, but he's counting on fooling a lot of people who don't pay attention into thinking he's against or neutral to it. We'll see if he pulls that one off.

I don't understand this...'he has to take a position' POV.

So does Romney believe that the earth was created in 7 days and is 4000 years old...or that creationism is a farce? I guess he couldn't possibly be neutral or the topic be a low priority. And what's he going to do about it? Evidently he needs to tell us this.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I don't understand this...'he has to take a position' POV.

So does Romney believe that the earth was created in 7 days and is 4000 years old...or that creationism is a farce? I guess he couldn't possibly be neutral or the topic be a low priority. And what's he going to do about it? Evidently he needs to tell us this.

Obama has taken a position on this in the past, but has always hedged carefully on it, and he's got his vice president out there putting forth views on this. Not comparable to the subject you raise, which I haven't seen brought up or put out there for votes in elections or anything.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I don't see why same sex marriage has to be a life or death issue for everyone. When this issue broke in Mass, I personally was okay with civil unions if that made everybody happy, but I wouldn't vote for or against anybody based on this issue. Once it become law, as my life hasn't changed any because of it I'm fine with defending the law, but I wouldn't be out carrying a sign one way or another.

Where NC has screwed up in my opinion is banning civil unions. I can see people not being comfortable with "marriage". So be it. The goal ought to be equal rights, not labeling. Interesting how self appointed true conservative Bob Gray is in favor of segregating people into second class citizenship. No worries though, as it furthers the narrative of conservatives being out of touch old people.

Regarding Obama, the Supreme Court will decide this soon enough. If it gets overturned then problem solved. If DOMA is upheld he can simply say he's for the state's deciding how they want to handle it (Dick Cheney's position) while he's personally okay with it.

 

[Proud2baLaker]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

New blood can be fine but when that new blood stats that they will be strictly partisan and will refuse any sort of comprimise, we should probably stick with the old blood.

Lugar's goodbye gets it right.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Obama has taken a position on this in the past, but has always hedged carefully on it, and he's got his vice president out there putting forth views on this. Not comparable to the subject you raise, which I haven't seen brought up or put out there for votes in elections or anything.

Not tracking...

Romney has danced around creationism and will have a VP who soon will have a point of view. Its a social issue which would change votes. Still not sure why someone's stance on gay marriage needs to be well defined...but not that of creationism.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I don't see why same sex marriage has to be a life or death issue for everyone.

Unless you're gay or have gay friends, it's highly unlikely to matter in any way, shape, or form in your day to day life.

The abortion issue is similar in that it won't matter to you either unless you're sexually active and there's a chance of an unwanted pregnancy occurring. That rules out a significant chunk of the population, but thanks to religious zealotry, many who can't possibly be directly impacted by this issue will still argue and cast votes based on what is said about it by politicians and supreme court nominees.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Unless you're gay or have gay friends, it's highly unlikely to matter in any way, shape, or form in your day to day life.

The abortion issue is similar in that it won't matter to you either unless you're sexually active and there's a chance of an unwanted pregnancy occurring. That rules out a significant chunk of the population, but thanks to religious zealotry, many who can't possibly be directly impacted by this issue will still argue and cast votes based on what is said about it by politicians and supreme court nominees.

Which is precisely why as a country we appear to be far more socially conservative than we really are.

The people who would lean left, but aren't directly impacted by these issues and can't be motivated to vote, don't have anyone prodding them into action.

If every U.S. citizen with the right to vote was forced to cast a vote...

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Not tracking...

Romney has danced around creationism and will have a VP who soon will have a point of view. Its a social issue which would change votes. Still not sure why someone's stance on gay marriage needs to be well defined...but not that of creationism.

Because the issue is being pushed hard and is related to major recent laws/court rulings, unlike creationism. You really think that the gay rights folks would ever walk away and not want this to be an issue? They know long term it's going their direction, they just are pushing it harder and faster than is totally politically expedient. Obama wants to somehow assure the advocates that he'll push their issue hard after the election, but try to send the message to those that aren't supporters that he's more moderate. A tricky dance, but he's good at such dances.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Not tracking...

Romney has danced around creationism and will have a VP who soon will have a point of view. Its a social issue which would change votes. Still not sure why someone's stance on gay marriage needs to be well defined...but not that of creationism.

It's because it's a box they want to put him in. That's one of their favorite games, but when you turn the table on them it's "attacking their religion."

It's fascinating that the GOP seems to be doubling down with social issues as their quadrennial wedge issue, now that the economy seems to be moving in the "wrong" direction (for them). It speaks volumes that their leadership can't think of anything else to run on, and that they won't actually defend their economic views.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Unless you're gay or have gay friends, it's highly unlikely to matter in any way, shape, or form in your day to day life.

The abortion issue is similar in that it won't matter to you either unless you're sexually active and there's a chance of an unwanted pregnancy occurring. That rules out a significant chunk of the population, but thanks to religious zealotry, many who can't possibly be directly impacted by this issue will still argue and cast votes based on what is said about it by politicians and supreme court nominees.

Many people either have had abortions, have family or relatives that have had abortions, or know people that have had abortions, and a lot of folks who are involved in abortions in one way or another have issues they deal with at some point later in life, though these are often buried for awhile. That's why, like where my wife and I volunteer, they have post-abortion support groups to help people work through the psychological and/or physical issues resulting from an abortion.

Oh, and of course, there's a broad social interest in having a society that values life. Unlike gay marriage where our society is liberalizing pretty quickly, this issue is moving toward social conservatives as medical technology more and more demonstrates how early in a baby's formation in the mother's womb various bodily functions and activities begin occurring. Surveys have shown that young people are more strongly opposed to abortion in aggregate than the generation(s) older than them. Hard to argue with an ultrasound that shows a baby wriggling around in the womb and then you hear the heartbeat, see the fingers and toes, etc.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It's because it's a box they want to put him in. That's one of their favorite games, but when you turn the table on them it's "attacking their religion."

It's fascinating that the GOP seems to be doubling down with social issues as their quadrennial wedge issue, now that the economy seems to be moving in the "wrong" direction (for them). It speaks volumes that their leadership can't think of anything else to run on, and that they won't actually defend their economic views.

No, he wants to benefits of being pro-gay, without the drawbacks of being pro-gay. Classic political maneuvering that you'd decry if it was being done on the other side of the aisle. But, it's ok if it's done by those we like, eh?

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Oh, and of course, there's a broad social interest in having a society that values life. Unlike gay marriage where our society is liberalizing pretty quickly, this issue is moving toward social conservatives as medical technology more and more demonstrates how early in a baby's formation in the mother's womb various bodily functions and activities begin occurring. Surveys have shown that young people are more strongly opposed to abortion in aggregate than the generation(s) older than them. Hard to argue with an ultrasound that shows a baby wriggling around in the womb and then you hear the heartbeat, see the fingers and toes, etc.

I don't have any problem with any of what you are saying here. My pro-choice stance has definitely been evolving based on medical technology (and also, much more likely, based on my aging). I think the thing that has driven young people's changes in support for reproductive freedom is that the equal rights movement won so many victories that it has become virtually unfathomable now to regard women as second class citizens the way they were for so long. Women have taken control of their own lives and so they don't need to automatically be pro-choice and still be feminist. This is a good thing -- it shows the maturity of feminism from third wave to post-wave, when it's completely normalized. Gay rights will no doubt follow the same path. A few people will be left behind, clinging to their bigotries, but they have always existed and quite frankly don't matter.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

No, he wants to benefits of being pro-gay, without the drawbacks of being pro-gay. Classic political maneuvering that you'd decry if it was being done on the other side of the aisle. But, it's ok if it's done by those we like, eh?

So you would like to hear Mittens' exact position on magic underwear and meeting in the afterlife on Mars, right? Careful with that inconsistency label, it's sticky.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

A few people will be left behind, clinging to their bigotries, but they have always existed and quite frankly don't matter.

I don't matter? Well, thanks for letting me know, I guess.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

So you would like to hear Mittens' exact position on magic underwear and meeting in the afterlife on Mars, right? Careful with that inconsistency label, it's sticky.

I haven't seen major laws/court rulings/controversy about magic underwear or Mars, but I'm open to being corrected if you can corroborate this. Again, like with 5mn, you're comparing apples and oranges. You take 100 people, and the level of interest they'll have, whether liberal or conservative, in gay marriage will be way being their interest in your issue of magic underwear and Mars. But, I can understand the need to obfuscate for Obama on this. It's a dicey issue for him that could help cost him a few states if he doesn't dance around it just right. My bet is his dancing is good enough to fool most people.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I don't matter? Well, thanks for letting me know, I guess.

At least you admit that you cling to bigotry. That's a good first step. Now overcoming them is the next step. It won't be easy, but is very well worth it to be a member of society.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

At least you admit that you cling to bigotry. That's a good first step. Now overcoming them is the next step. It won't be easy, but is very well worth it to be a member of society.

I'm not admitting anything, just noting that according to Kepler's statement, I don't count. I'd never say such a thing about those I vehemently disagree with, but some of us have to fight the battle against intolerance, losing battle though it may be.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

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[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

So you would like to hear Mittens' exact position on magic underwear and meeting in the afterlife on Mars, right? Careful with that inconsistency label, it's sticky.

Breath taking religious bigotry. Too bad he's not Muslim. Then he'd get some respect around here. Just wondering, do you talk about "mackeral snappers" or "heebs?"