2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[MinnFan]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Human systems adapt. The constitutional chains are redefined with every generation, they haven't broken. The great thing about our system is if enough people feel as you do that the government is overstepping its bounds you will become the next majority and then your interpretation of the constitution will be ascendant for awhile.

Which is supposed to be done by constitutional amendment instead of judicial fiat. Now its primarily a matter of who you put on the bench. Regardless, once the "chains" were broken we went from a Federal gov't that spend 5% of GDP to one that now spends 25%. Because there is not longer a document that says "you can't do that" I don't ever see us bringing gov't back to the levels of the early 20th century. There is simply too much dependancy built into the system now.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Human systems adapt. The constitutional chains are redefined with every generation, they haven't broken. The great thing about our system is if enough people feel as you do that the government is overstepping its bounds you will become the next majority and then your interpretation of the constitution will be ascendant for awhile.

You have way more faith than I do.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Which is supposed to be done by constitutional amendment instead of judicial fiat. Now its primarily a matter of who you put on the bench.

It always was. Marbury v Madison and McCullouch v Maryland were watershed moments of constitutional reinterpretation, all done without amendment and by those marble pillars of restraint we're supposed to worship.

I suspect the current members of the Court do by far the most research and have the best understanding (and concern with) originalist intent. If nothing else the historiographical tools of the 19th century weren't up to today's standard.

IMHO 90% of the "strict constructionist" argument is just a fig leaf for a political agenda. Ascertaining intent is itself one of the most imaginative and "activist" exercises a justice does.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Which is supposed to be done by constitutional amendment instead of judicial fiat. Now its primarily a matter of who you put on the bench. Regardless, once the "chains" were broken we went from a Federal gov't that spend 5% of GDP to one that now spends 25%. Because there is not longer a document that says "you can't do that" I don't ever see us bringing gov't back to the levels of the early 20th century. There is simply too much dependancy built into the system now.

Agreed.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Meanwhile I am still ahead on my Iowa Electronic Futures Market purchase, so it's not just bloviating, there's real money on the line. No one here has yet put real dollars behind Obama, eh?

Do you consider donations to the candidate as putting "real dollars behind Obama" or just money used for gambling?

 

[Craig P.]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The thing that is bad for the country long term is running a debt during good times. That's the time when we should be aggressively paying down our debt.

As opposed to handing out tax breaks like candy.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I wonder if a mechanism where it took a super-majority to raise spending or lower taxes when the country was in debt, and vice-versa when it was in surplus, would work?

Maybe it would work once you got the debt paid off. Until then, it seems like it would tend to enable the worst of the Tea Party austerity uber alles craziness.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The thing that is bad for the country long term is running a debt during good times. That's the time when we should be aggressively paying down our debt.

The Swiss have implemented a system that seems to work well for them, that is suggested as a model for us to follow as well.

Behold, a good idea from Europe: Spending in Switzerland can't increase by more than trendline tax revenue.


Meanwhile, what I find tremendously frustrating and exasperating, is all the talk of national debt in a vacuum. I'd like to see both sides of the national balance sheet, assets as well as debt. The US has tremendous revenue potential that is being under-utilized, partly by "crony capitalism" (below-market leases for timberland, grazing rights, etc.) and partly by misdirected zealotry (oil drilling rights, for example).


The idea to "eliminate" use of fossil fuels seems too simple-minded; the problem is not the use of fossil fuels it is the pollution that currently results. Obama is all stick and no carrot, his answer to every problem is more rules, more regulations. How can you unleash ingenuity and creativity in such a system?

Reward innovations in the use of fossil fuels that reduce / eliminate pollution; decentralize the power grid entirely instead of trying to build "green" generating plants (imagine if you could embed solar fibers in roofing shingles; houses need to be re-shingled every 20 to 30 years, which means in 30 years every house could be partially self-sufficient. Instead we try to replace coal-fired plants with arrays of windmills or huge solar collection basins? that is short-sighted and foolish).

Obama is so obsessively myopic about "fairness" that there is no room for "opportunity" in his lexicon, yet the pursuit of opportunity is what made America great.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It always was. Marbury v Madison and McCullouch v Maryland were watershed moments of constitutional reinterpretation, all done without amendment and by those marble pillars of restraint we're supposed to worship.

I suspect the current members of the Court do by far the most research and have the best understanding (and concern with) originalist intent. If nothing else the historiographical tools of the 19th century weren't up to today's standard.

IMHO 90% of the "strict constructionist" argument is just a fig leaf for a political agenda. Ascertaining intent is itself one of the most imaginative and "activist" exercises a justice does.

Somebody call 911. I'm getting emanations from my penumbra.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It doesn't have to be a flat tax for everybody to have skin in the game.

You and I agree again! Good thing I'm sitting down

I've advocated the concept of "citizens' dues" for awhile. You join the Booster Club, you pay dues; you join KofC, you pay dues; you join whatever, you pay dues; you are a citizen, you pay dues. Even if it is symbolic, like the lesser of $10 or 1% of income, everyone chips in something. We are all in this together. No more "they pay, I get without paying anything." That's bad for character.

Everyone here who's a parent realizes that you want to teach your children to grow up into self-reliant human beings who contribute to society. Why should our so-called "welfare" programs require permanent infantilization of recipients?

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

You and I agree again! Good thing I'm sitting down

I've advocated the concept of "citizens' dues" for awhile. You join the Booster Club, you pay dues; you join KofC, you pay dues; you join whatever, you pay dues; you are a citizen, you pay dues. Even if it is symbolic, like the lesser of $10 or 1% of income, everyone chips in something. We are all in this together. No more "they pay, I get without paying anything." That's bad for character.

Everyone here who's a parent realizes that you want to teach your children to grow up into self-reliant human beings who contribute to society. Why should our so-called "welfare" programs require permanent infantilization of recipients?

I'm OK with citizen dues.

We also teach our children to share, not just keep grabbing and grabbing because "it's your right, you're free."

 

[Craig P.]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Obama is all stick and no carrot, his answer to every problem is more rules, more regulations. How can you unleash ingenuity and creativity in such a system?

The other side of the coin is that the GOP is all carrot and no stick. Neither is acceptable.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The other side of the coin is that the GOP is all carrot and no stick. Neither is acceptable.

Both sides are heavy on the carrots, which is exactly what you'd expect when the horse bribes the driver.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Obama is so obsessively myopic about "fairness" that there is no room for "opportunity" in his lexicon, yet the pursuit of opportunity is what made America great.

And he never seems to be able to grasp that there can be differing views on exactly what is fair or not, not just his view.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I've advocated the concept of "citizens' dues" for awhile. You join the Booster Club, you pay dues; you join KofC, you pay dues; you join whatever, you pay dues; you are a citizen, you pay dues. Even if it is symbolic, like the lesser of $10 or 1% of income, everyone chips in something. We are all in this together. No more "they pay, I get without paying anything." That's bad for character.

Everyone here who's a parent realizes that you want to teach your children to grow up into self-reliant human beings who contribute to society. Why should our so-called "welfare" programs require permanent infantilization of recipients?

There's only one group that doesn't pay taxes, and it's not the one you're thinking of.

At a time when America is borrowing about 40 cents of every dollar it spends because tax revenues cannot keep up with government spending, hundreds of America's wealthiest households are paying no income tax at all.

According to a recently released IRS report, almost 1,500 of America's 230,000 millionaires avoided paying any federal income tax in 2009.

So how did they do it? Were they scamming the system? Evading the IRS? Stashing their cash in elusive off-shore, untraceable bank accounts?

Actually, they were probably donating to charity, investing in local and state government bonds and making most of their money overseas.

Most of the millionaires who did not pay income tax to the IRS probably still had to hand over a chunk of their change, just not to the U.S. government, said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center.

Instead, many of America's high earners pay income taxes to foreign governments because of profits from overseas investments.

How patriotic of them!

So, how much should their dues be?

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

And he never seems to be able to grasp that there can be differing views on exactly what is fair or not, not just his view.

When we all know the correct viewpoint is that the other side "aren't real Americans."

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

When we all know the correct viewpoint is that the other side "aren't real Americans."

that's part of what made Reagan great. he never once demonized people who disagreed with him. his first tax cut passed with heavily democratic majorities in both houses. he found a way to get what he wanted because he truly did not care who got the credit.

it's ironic (meant sincerely) to me that Obama wants to pattern himself after reagan yet seems to think that it was only rhetoric that made reagan great (note: NOT perfect). reagan had substance behind his rhetoric and meant what he said. he engaged others in his vision so that they too wanted to be part of it, and then he let them follow through, praising them throughout.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Do you consider donations to the candidate as putting "real dollars behind Obama" or just money used for gambling?

I'll refrain from the obvious taunting reply.

Donating to a candidate means you want to help that candidate get his/her message out.

While I'd prefer to see Romney win, I am not at all motivated in the slightest degree to donate to his campaign. It would make as much sense to donate to King Canute.

According to the IEFM prospectus, they are engaged in educational research, which is similar to what I told my study hall teacher in high school when I said I wanted to work on a probability research project. After she said okay, we broke out the cards and kept track of the winning hand each round, so we could divide each set of occurrances by total hands dealt.

Yes, I am betting that between now and the election Romney's prospects will improve, and I am gambling that I will make money on this prediction. It is much pleasanter than arguing, and probably more lucrative as well. We'll see. the bet removes the argument and turns it into something else. Instead of a source of contention, it becomes a source of observation.

Try to argue with someone who will neither agree nor disagree with you and see how much fun you have. I meanwhile have a life outside this board.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

that's part of what made Reagan great. he never once demonized people who disagreed with him.

Right, the idea of Welfare Queens driving Cadillacs was not meant to demonize women, it was intended to boost their self-esteem.

 

[Twitch Boy]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That's part of what made Reagan great. He never once demonized people who disagreed with him.

That's part of what made Reagan great. He never once demonized people who disagreed with him.

That's part of what made Reagan great. He never once demonized people who disagreed with him.

That's part of what made Reagan great. He never once demonized people who disagreed with him.

This. Dear Lord, this.