2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

[Greyeagle]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I remember the Harry Carey/Andre Dawson relationship being the model for the John Madden/Brett Favre relationship.

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Dan Shaughnessy, 2nd stupidest sports writer in America.

yeah, Shaughnessy is a complete tool. But he did make one outstanding point:

The stat geeks, those get-a-lifers who are sucking all the joy out of our national pastime, no doubt will be able to demonstrate that Edgar was better than Lou Gehrig and Rogers Hornsby. I'm not buying. Stats don't tell the whole story. A man can drown in three feet of water.

 

[Patman]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

yeah, Shaughnessy is a complete tool. But he did make one outstanding point:

he did? only an idiot would compare players across eras. While the implication of the numbers and the consquences is the same... the era reflects the type of player. I don't think we're going to diminish the 1927 Yankees because they could probably be beaten by the 2009 Washington Nationals just owed on strength training and conditioning. Using stats to compare players across eras is largely a fool's and dreamer's game.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

he did? only an idiot would compare players across eras. While the implication of the numbers and the consquences is the same... the era reflects the type of player. I don't think we're going to diminish the 1927 Yankees because they could probably be beaten by the 2009 Washington Nationals just owed on strength training and conditioning. Using stats to compare players across eras is largely a fool's and dreamer's game.

Funny you should say that, because the Bill James apostles seek to do that very thing. See the recent Raines is as good or better than Clemente argument, or I believe it was James himself making the Randy Johnson better than Koufax argument based on his own statistical analysis.

EDIT - Found the article:

http://a.espncdn.com/mlb/s/2002/0619/1396600.html

 

[Patman]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Funny you should say that, because the Bill James apostles seek to do that very thing. See the recent Raines is as good or better than Clemente argument, or I believe it was James himself making the Randy Johnson better than Koufax argument based on his own statistical analysis.

I did think about it a little while longer... you can assess how important a player is relative to the other players (playing in the same time period)... but its not easy. When you're talking about baseball players and the hall you are talking performance relative to the rest of the group.

IMO, to do this adequately you can't just compare the numbers off a stat sheet unless you're just looking to argue over beers.

All baseball statistics are relative to the player pool. If every pitcher was Pedro Martinez then batting performance is going to be lower. IMO, I think you could probably judge most players from the current era as "better". I would think Bill James would be looking for examples where his method shines at showing which players are over-appreciated and under-appreciated. At best you can say "better within their own era" but that's about it.

 

[JF_Gophers]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

74.2% and 5 votes short for Blyleven. Makes me think he will actually make it within his last 2 years of eligibility.

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

You stats people and Rover should just settle down and accept that it's not an absolute. Like many things in life, it's a great big gray area.

Obviously there's gray area to it, but the fact remains that if you want to assess how good a baseball player was (that's who we're trying to honor here, right? good baseball players?), looking at his actual performance in games is so much more significant than sportswriters' recollections of whether someone "had that Hall of Fame aura" when the sportswriter saw the guy play 25 years ago (Jayson Stark actually wrote that BS in a column) that they don't even belong in the same conversation. I mean, the Jack Morris supporters are off their rocker, but at least most of the things they talk about are actually performance-related.

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Funny you should say that, because the Bill James apostles seek to do that very thing. See the recent Raines is as good or better than Clemente argument, or I believe it was James himself making the Randy Johnson better than Koufax argument based on his own statistical analysis.

EDIT - Found the article:

http://a.espncdn.com/mlb/s/2002/0619/1396600.html

Really? Bill James wrote that? Oh wait, at the top there's another guy's name David Schoenfield. Maybe that's Bill James' nickname or maybe you're just lazy.

If you look at Raines and Clemente their BA/OBP/SLG are similar and both played the majority of their careers in offensively depressed eras IIRC. They have almost the same amount of games for their careers.

Clemente was either the best RF defensively of all time or one of the best. Cannon arm. Raines is the best base stealer of all time percentage success rate wise.

I think Raines should be in but I'm not considering him better than Clemente.

If Clemente is the standard we gotta kick a lot of guys out!

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Or maybe you have no reading comprehension, Poindexter. Or maybe you do not know what the word "apostle" means. or most likely a combination of both.

Or I believe Bill James himself.

No reading comprehension for you, not me. He's clearly implying James made this argument.

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

No reading comprehension for you, not me. He's clearly implying James made this argument.

I stand corrected. I think Rover needs to learn to stop posting when he is hammered.

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I stand corrected. I think Rover needs to learn to stop posting when he is hammered.

Then he would stop posting here entirely.

Wait, I like this plan.

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

If Clemente is the standard we gotta kick a lot of guys out!

Starting with two of the three guys that have been elected over the last two years.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I stand corrected. I think Rover needs to stop posting

FYP

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

FYP

Hmmmm... Since you already have taken the nancy boy route and have him on ignore, why do you care that he posts at all?

Just sayin....

 

[jen]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I blame it on him wearing his hat as if he was a train engineer.

Would they put it on his plaque that way? If CC Sabathia makes it, are they going to put his on crooked? These are the important questions that need to be addressed.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Really? Bill James wrote that? Oh wait, at the top there's another guy's name David Schoenfield. Maybe that's Bill James' nickname or maybe you're just lazy.

If you look at Raines and Clemente their BA/OBP/SLG are similar and both played the majority of their careers in offensively depressed eras IIRC. They have almost the same amount of games for their careers.

Clemente was either the best RF defensively of all time or one of the best. Cannon arm. Raines is the best base stealer of all time percentage success rate wise.

I think Raines should be in but I'm not considering him better than Clemente.

If Clemente is the standard we gotta kick a lot of guys out!

Boy are you stupid. Obviously it wasn't James and I knew that when I went back and added the edit. Yes, I didn't bother to change to original comment, but really, that's not the point. Ya know, the hallmark of a nerd is to nitpick on irrelevant points while wussing out on the main argument. I think that fits you to a T. But hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not a Handy-type coward.

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Boy are you stupid. Obviously it wasn't James and I knew that when I went back and added the edit. Yes, I didn't bother to change to original comment, but really, that's not the point. Ya know, the hallmark of a nerd is to nitpick on irrelevant points while wussing out on the main argument. I think that fits you to a T. But hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not a Handy-type coward.

Schoenfield isn't a Bill James apostle either, even though he cites him occasionally. Try again, old man.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Schoenfield isn't a Bill James apostle either, even though he cites him occasionally. Try again, old man.

I would bring something up about you missing the point yet again, but if you had that skill you'd be employed now, so why don't we just move on, okay?

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I blame it on him wearing his hat as if he was a train engineer.

Would they put it on his plaque that way? If CC Sabathia makes it, are they going to put his on crooked? These are the important questions that need to be addressed.

I say put McGriff in wearing the Baseball World hat if he gets in. Everyone associates him more with that than they do with any individual team he played for.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I'm curious if they'll have Dawson wearing the Expos hat.