2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: Congrats to Meghan Duggan!

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

The individual team media guides are the best place to get all-time scoring figures.

There's nothing "unofficial" about statistics compiled before the 2000-2001 season, the first with an NCAA sponsored championship. People were very capable of compiling results prior to the NCAA's involvement in determining champions of the sport. I have no problem with individual organization's compiling records as they see fit, however. But certainly USA Hockey recognizes that the sport contested three national championships and awarded three Kazmaiers prior to 2000-2001 (all sponsored by USA Hockey).

The 340 number for Botterill is correct. Shewchuk is 2nd with 307. Chu third with 284. Corriero 4th with 265. A.J. is fifth with 257. Though A.J. has Harvard's single-season record for points, she did not play on championship-caliber Harvard teams her first three years.

EDIT: The above list is for Harvard's top five all-time leading scorers, not the all-time list for college hockey. Thanks to RStarr for pointing out that I did not make this clear.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

There are probably some huge totals for Granato and the like, but I don't have a source for those.

There aren't. I've looked into this before. Botterill is No. 1. It comes down to looking at the media guides for the Ivies and UNH/Providence/Northeastern & Minnesota & UMD. Carisa Zaban is UNH's all-time scoring leader, 263 points.

I believe Gretchen Ulion was the only pre-NCAA player to crack 300 points
http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=11600&ATCLID=204920214

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Don't worry, the Kaz crew won't pick Agosta, for they are simply too square.

Well personally I think simply giving the award to the player with the most points is the square thing to do. Why have a committee then?

These are the Kazmaier criteria:

Selection criteria includes outstanding individual and team skills, sportsmanship, performance in the clutch, personal character, competitiveness and a love of hockey. Consideration is also given to academic achievement and civic involvement.

Do you think Meghan Agosta is the player who best satisfies these criteria this year?

To the extent I've looked at the question, I do not consider her to be the leading candidate relative to either Duggan or Knight. Her team has not been as successful. She did not score as many clutch points in Mercyhurst's biggest games this season.

I'm always interested in comments as to the leading candidates' two-way performance. I remember I defended Agosta against Hux a few seasons back, who based his assessment on games he saw against Providence, but the stats clearly showed these were her worst of the season, and it was unfair to judge her solely on these games.

I don't think the points Agosta compiled against Brown compared to the points Duggan and Knight put up against St. Cloud will matter much in deciding the award.

I don't think the fact Agosta will set an NCAA record will matter much. As others have said it's not a career achievement award.

I think Agosta's best year in terms of satisfying the Kaz criteria was her freshman year. Unfortunately for her, Bauer and Chu also had outstanding seasons on and off the ice. I think the big factors distinguishing Chu that year were her consistency (she had a point in every game before the vote) and +/- best on the Harvard team by far, though Agosta was on a more successful team overall. And Bauer probably had the best year overall once conference and NCAA tournament play are taking into account. This season Duggan has been the most consistent scorer, though her team record point streak was just snapped.

Personally, I was rooting for Agosta to win this year. I do feel deeply sorry for her if she becomes a 4-time top 3 finalist and never wins, especially with this last ceremony being held at Mercyhurst. But I don't see at this moment how she is the most deserving candidate given the criterion for the award.

 

[comefrombehind]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Having known Ms. Kazmaier, I definitely would agree that the square answer would not necessarily be the right one. Originally, at least one member of the selection committee also knew her, although it’s probably not enormously relevant at this point, as the award has developed a history and character of its own.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

That's an interesting point, comefrombehind. Whoever determined the criteria for the Kazmaier did a good job writing instructions that gave the award a distinct identity from the MVPs, Player of the Years, Humanitarians, and Academic All-Americans. It is a unique hybrid in college sports, and the history has played some role in shaping how much weight to give to the academics and leadership vs. on-ice performance (though I suspect there'd be a general agreement even in the absence of the history). It's clear the Kaz doesn't go to the best junior or senior with a straight A average, or simply the top scorer, but when top players with years of outstanding academic credentials have been in contention, like Bauer or Chu or Bendus, it has helped them. Whereas if it were just a straight conventional Player of the Year award, you'd probably have given closer consideration to Agosta or Raty in their respective freshman seasons, to give recent examples. So bottom line is I think the original criteria set for the award matters much more for the award's character & outcome than current committees being influenced by the precedent of past committees, or the committee makeup in any given year.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Philip-Poulin and Wakefield have both cooled off a bit. Stack is making a strong case. This Beanpot game Tuesday could be decisive. It's the last of 4 games between the teams but coming so close to the voting it'll be important. Also I notice Stack has a large lead in Hockey East scoring. To the extent coaches may value conference play, that could give Stack an edge in the 10 race.

This is about what I thought would happen -- Stack figuring on all of BC's points against BU, and BC winning despite being outshot with Schaus in net.

BC's really picked things up after that bad loss to Providence Jan. 21. I've got to move Schaus to top 10 lock status now, and Stack inside the bubble.

So here's where I think the 10 race stands now

Locks:
F Duggan, Knight, Agosta, Bendus
D Fortino
G Raty, Schaus

Bubble (in):
F Stack, JLam, MLam-Kolls

Bubble (out):
F Philip-Poulin, Irwin, Wakefield

Still a couple weeks left, and those elite forwards are all pretty close. I think Stack has firmly established herself as the top Kaz forward candidate in Hockey East. If Philip-Poulin makes the 10, it'll be bumping a Lam.

Looking ahead though, UND has a brutal schedule (Minnesota & Wisconsin), and BU has a relatively soft schedule (a slightly-above average Northeastern team and a below-average Maine team). So this was pretty much the last chance for the BU forwards to distinguish themselves. I'd predict the Lams will play well enough next two weekends so that their making the 10 cut is not in doubt.

Maybe there's some chance I'm overestimating Bendus' reputation by calling her a top 10 lock, but if you look at her clutch contributions to the win over Cornell, and the academic criterion, I don't think there's any way the 2010 Kaz winner gets left out.

Philip-Poulin has the strong recognition from the Olympics and a strong start to the season, but it looks to me like she'll just miss. (trying to read today's Daily Free Press article to found out why she was out today but site appears to be down.... ) (EDIT: BU Today reporting upper body injury from Saturday's game kept her out)

 

[RStarr]

uh, duh.

uh, duh.

Well personally I think simply giving the award to the player with the most points is the square thing to do. Why have a committee then?

Hey Dave, get some glasses, eh?

Where in my post did I say that Agosta deserved to win simply because she has scored the most points?

I didn't. I said that it should be a FACTOR, among other things.

You people are idiots. You LOVE to down play everything Agosta does while at the same time over exaggerating things other players do (and then try to pretend its not glaringly obvious). Its a year after year discussion. Same ****, different day. Get a new argument already. Or, why don't you just admit you don't like Agosta and we can move on.

And since when are random media guides the end all be all to official stats? They aren't any more official than what the individual school says the stats are. Speaking of which, you can go ahead and correct your post. Chu was in third. Now Agosta is. Give a little respect where respect is due.

The only "squares" are you block heads.

 

[dave1381]

Re: uh, duh.

Re: uh, duh.

Where in my post did I say that Agosta deserved to win simply because she has scored the most points? I didn't. I said that it should be a FACTOR, among other things.

Yes, you say total points is only a factor, and then you don't say what the other factors are. Instead you just insult people. I am sincerely interested in hearing you tell me what some of the other factors are. Please do.

You people are idiots. You LOVE to down play everything Agosta does while at the same time over exaggerating things other players do (and then try to pretend its not glaringly obvious). Its a year after year discussion. Same ****, different day. Get a new argument already.

No, I think every year has been different.

Or, why don't you just admit you don't like Agosta and we can move on.

No, because it's not true.

And since when are random media guides the end all be all to official stats? They aren't any more official than what the individual school says the stats are. Speaking of which, you can go ahead and correct your post. Chu was in third. Now Agosta is. Give a little respect where respect is due.

You're right my post was misleading, sorry. I was citing Harvard's all-time leading scorers from the Harvard media guide. I will add a clarification. Team media guides are the authoritative source for their own institution, as the NCAA is only recognizing stats 2000-01 onwards.

 

[Bumbles]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Poulin will be out for the rest of the regular season so her chances are probably slim at this point.

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Haley Irwin won't be traveling to Ohio State with the Bulldogs for this weekend's series, so any talk of her and the Kaz is moot at this point. These two games will make it nine she's missed due to injury this season and eight straight games. Nuts. Not about the Kaz, but about her not being able to play.

 

[dave1381]

Thanks all for the sad injury info. I feel there was more injury attrition from the Kaz race than usual this season.

 

[dave1381]

Great article on Duggan.

Makes an extremely strong case for her Kaz candidacy, in addition to the strong case already apparent from the stats.

http://m.host.madison.com/mobile/sports/columnists/andy_baggot/article_b6b445ec-3591-11e0-9d63-001cc4c002e0.html

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

And Duggan with a hat trick tonight, Knight with 2 goals, against North Dakota.

 

[RStarr]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Like Duggan, Agosta also had a 5 point weekend (on the road). although against a much weaker Syracuse.

 

[BadgerFan11]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Like Duggan, Agosta also had a 5 point weekend (on the road). although against a much weaker Syracuse.

i think this is the point everyone has been making as it relates to her numbers vs Knight, Duggan, Phillip-Poulin,etc. glad you see the light.

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Like Duggan, Agosta also had a 5 point weekend (on the road). although against a much weaker Syracuse.

Jocelyne Larocque had a six-point weekend on the road vs. Ohio State. Just saying.

 

[RStarr]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

i think this is the point everyone has been making as it relates to her numbers vs Knight, Duggan, Phillip-Poulin,etc. glad you see the light.

Jocelyne Larocque had a six-point weekend on the road vs. Ohio State. Just saying.

+1.

actually, +2. because I love Barto that much.

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Meghan Agosta

RUTHVEN, ONT. > Ice Hockey

Agosta, a senior forward at Mercyhurst College, scored three goals and had one assist in a 6--2 win over Wayne State to become the alltime leading scorer in NCAA women's hockey (286 points). A three-time All-America, she won gold at the 2006 Turin Olympics and again at the 2010 Vancouver Games, where she was named women's hockey MVP.

 

[hurstfan87]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Meghan Agosta

RUTHVEN, ONT. > Ice Hockey

Agosta, a senior forward at Mercyhurst College, scored three goals and had one assist in a 6--2 win over Wayne State to become the alltime leading scorer in NCAA women's hockey (286 points). A three-time All-America, she won gold at the 2006 Turin Olympics and again at the 2010 Vancouver Games, where she was named women's hockey MVP.

You got this off of Sports Illustrated faces in the Crowd

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

You got this off of Sports Illustrated faces in the Crowd

Thanks for the clarification.

I think Agosta deserves more than a Face in the Crowd from SI. How many other Olympic gold medalists get to be a mere face? I think it's kind of insulting to women's hockey to be honest. She's already achieved at the highest level of her sport. Is Sidney Crosby going to be in there next week? Maybe Shawn Johnson?

Look at the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faces_in_the_Crowd Lot's of famous people get to be a face -- but five years before they become famous!! Agosta belonged in here years ago.

Can you think of any other athlete who was more distinguished in their sport who ended up in Faces in the Crowd?

edit: Oh I just heard Caroline Wozniacki just regained the No. 1 rank in women's tennis: maybe she'd be a good faces in the crowd pick for next week.