2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

[ARM]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

It would be tempting to get Chone Figgins because he has always killed us over the years, but I doubt we have any chance at him. He seems like an Angels type of player, so I expect that they'll keep him. I read forums of other teams from time to time, and they are all suggesting "sign Figgins". So this would not be a case of the Twins having a bright idea that nobody else had.

Maybe the Twins will take on a little bit more payroll w/ a new ballpark. I would guess that the priorities for such cash would be: 1) Mauer; 2) Cabrera; 3) 3rd base; 4) Pavano or equivalent. They clearly need Cabrera or someone like him, because our ragtag infield looked much stronger once he was added. I don't see them opening the bank vault for an ace when they have options in Slowey, Perkins, and Bonser coming back. You and I might not think they are all good options, but the Twins might. Also, I think Duensing did fine in the rotation, and I expect that he is in the mix unless a couple of the other guys look great in spring training. Manship is another young (meaning cheap) guy who is bound to improve. If they were going to spend big bucks to get a #1 starter, then why wouldn't they have just kept Johan in the first place? Not going to happen. Santana was a sure thing, many of these FA signing turn out to be total busts, and the Twins can't afford to pay huge dollars and get jack.

 

[thebrain]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

Anybody read Reusse's article this morning?

http://www.startribune.com/sports/t...kD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUycaEacyU

Trading Nathan seems like a bit of a kneejerk reaction, then next season when we can't close out a game without him, Pat will be questioning why Nathan was traded.

A few points he has I agree with, but other than that I'm not so sure.

I read it and I'm mixed on the idea...Could Liriano, Bonser, or Neshek become a good closer? Liriano and Bonser are good for an inning or two. Bonser and Neshek are both coming off injuries so who knows what you'll get. I remember before Crain got hurt that he would be a closer.

 

[ajoyce02]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

I read it and I'm mixed on the idea...Could Liriano, Bonser, or Neshek become a good closer? Liriano and Bonser are good for an inning or two. Bonser and Neshek are both coming off injuries so who knows what you'll get. I remember before Crain got hurt that he would be a closer.

Could those guys be good closers? Maybe, but that's a risk. We've seen how Liriano pitched this season, I think you have to kind of assume about the same for Neshek coming off of the same surgery. Boof as the closer? That scares me a bit.

For as much flack as he caught all season, Crain wasn't terrible down the stretch. I just don't know that I'd want him closing games.

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

With the payroll set up the way it is, it doesn't make sense to spend elite closer money on even an elite closer.

It's too much payroll assigned to one player who isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Elite closer contracts are an extravagance.

The second argument is even if spending for an elite closer is OK, Nathan IMO is not an elite closer. He chokes every time in the playoffs. Just like BMBW. (Big mouth Billy Wagner.)

 

[gmann]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

With the payroll set up the way it is, it doesn't make sense to spend elite closer money on even an elite closer.

It's too much payroll assigned to one player who isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Elite closer contracts are an extravagance.

How many games did Nathan have an impact on? He saved nearly 50 games. How many games does does a starting pitcher impact? I say pound for pound the closer has more impact than one thinks. IMHO.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

How many games did Nathan have an impact on? He saved nearly 50 games.

How many of those were two or three run leads that he "saved?"

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

With the payroll set up the way it is, it doesn't make sense to spend elite closer money on even an elite closer.

It's too much payroll assigned to one player who isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Elite closer contracts are an extravagance.

The second argument is even if spending for an elite closer is OK, Nathan IMO is not an elite closer. He chokes every time in the playoffs. Just like BMBW. (Big mouth Billy Wagner.)

Without Nathan they don't even make the playoffs this year. Not even close.

 

[gmann]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

How many of those were two or three run leads that he "saved?"

Don't make me use my BSU education to school you like that union clown is doing.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

We are stuck with Nathan as the closer they are paying him too much at this point and they havent even begun to groom anyone to be the next closer.

It seems everyone assumes little to nothing will be done this offseason. Let me ask you, is that going to upset you more than usual because of Target Field? I am not asking because I am trying to rip the team I am asking because the thought of that angers me a lot and I want to see what others think.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

Without Nathan they don't even make the playoffs this year. Not even close.

I dunno I have always wondered how much impact a closer really has. I am sorry but pitching 1 inning with a 2 run lead and not losing doesn't seem like it should be that big of a deal. He almost never pitches anything over an inning and I think we all know about his struggles at the end. I could name a lot of things that had more impact on the Twins making the playoffs than Nathan this year I think.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

It's too much payroll assigned to one player who isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

I've seen teams try to contend w/o somebody dependable to close. It isn't pretty. You can work the numbers and demonstrate why it isn't important, but when one actually watches a team, it becomes pretty evident. The Twins were playing good baseball on September 2, then Nathan blew the save vs Chi with back-to-back HRs and a couple of walks, all with two out. It took them a while to recover from that, as they lost 7 of 10 over then next week and a half. Confidence is huge in this game, and if a team isn't confident that it can win late, then they usually don't.

Regarding Nathan's innings, I think more than the total number of innings, the question is when the innings were pitched. It was very sporadic. He wouldn't close a game for a week, then he'd be called on for 3 or 4 in a row. The game where he pitched two innings and threw over 50 pitches against KC seemed to take a toll as well. Closing is 90% mental, and I'm not sure if Nathan will bounce back from this latest disaster or not. If you trade him now, though, there has to be a "damaged goods" label on his forehead, so the timing is not very good.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

Don't make me use my BSU education to school you like that union clown is doing.

If you think that's what's happening... I don't know, maybe you're right about that BSU education.

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

How many games did Nathan have an impact on? He saved nearly 50 games. How many games does does a starting pitcher impact? I say pound for pound the closer has more impact than one thinks. IMHO.

Ah, seriously? The high leverage angle. Quality over quantity.

A Starting Pitcher pitches 200 innings. A closer pitches maybe 70 innings.

I'm not saying you pick a complete bum to be closer. I'm saying don't assign an insane salary to a guy as closer when you have a low payroll. And just because he gets into a lot of games doesn't mean he has an insane impact. One dude pitches maybe 35 games and huge impact on the season.

No team in their right minds gives a guy who throws 70 innings, no matter how high the leverage of those innings are, you don't want your closer getting 16 percent of your total payroll. It's not a recipe for success to structure your payroll that way.

If you're a mid tier team in terms of payroll but always competing for World Series Titles, you have to find bargains everywhere you can. Closer is usually a good place.

Heath Bell, Ryan Franklin, David Aardsma, Brian Wilson, Jonathan Broxton, the list goes on. You can find a pretty darn good closer and then take the rest of the money and put it into different areas of your team.

Btw looking at your payroll who in their right mind gives 4 million dollars to Nick Punto. Ron Mahay?

Congrats for winning despite these odd contracts.

 

[Slap Shot]

And what does pitching for the Diamondbacks have to do with it?

Take a chill pill Handy. I never said anything about his stint with the Diamondbacks and the rest of your rant was misdirected as well.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

Take a chill pill Handy. I never said anything about his stint with the Diamondbacks and the rest of your rant was misdirected as well.

Umm...Dude Love did...reading is FUNamental Slap Shot

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

The Punto contract was all Gardy...he wanted Nicky to be rewarded for all the years he put in and blah blah blah. We all hated the move and that is one of the main reasons half the Twins fans hate Nick Punto.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

I've seen teams try to contend w/o somebody dependable to close. It isn't pretty. You can work the numbers and demonstrate why it isn't important, but when one actually watches a team, it becomes pretty evident. The Twins were playing good baseball on September 2, then Nathan blew the save vs Chi with back-to-back HRs and a couple of walks, all with two out. It took them a while to recover from that, as they lost 7 of 10 over then next week and a half. Confidence is huge in this game, and if a team isn't confident that it can win late, then they usually don't.

Regarding Nathan's innings, I think more than the total number of innings, the question is when the innings were pitched. It was very sporadic. He wouldn't close a game for a week, then he'd be called on for 3 or 4 in a row. The game where he pitched two innings and threw over 50 pitches against KC seemed to take a toll as well. Closing is 90% mental, and I'm not sure if Nathan will bounce back from this latest disaster or not. If you trade him now, though, there has to be a "damaged goods" label on his forehead, so the timing is not very good.

I don't think Nathan is being labeled as damaged right now, going into the postseason he was generally considered (by ESPN types) to be one of the best closers in baseball. I don't think that one blown save, against the Yankees will tarnish that. It seems like his late regular season struggles have flown under the radar nationally, who knows what GMs think though.

I agree that Nathan could be a guy to trade, if anyone would take the contract. Liriano as the closer is interesting to me, I think that he could end up being an excellent closer, but he could also completely flop...again.

Billy Smith is definitely going to try to make some moves and get some guys this offseason, the only question to me is, do we end up with Mike Lamb and Rondell White again?

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

Did I say that you should replace Nathan with just anybody? I'm saying teams like the Twins should get a reliable closer and take the savings and improve other parts of their team.

The guys I mentioned are as good as Nathan, if not better. With the cost savings you could find another starter, another solid BP arm, whatever.

11 million on a closer when your total payroll is under 70 is crazy.

 

[Nathan]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

You'll never replace me, you dicks.

Oh. Nevermind.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: 2009 MN Twins Part 4: I Was Told There Would Be No Math

The Punto contract was all Gardy...he wanted Nicky to be rewarded for all the years he put in and blah blah blah. We all hated the move and that is one of the main reasons half the Twins fans hate Nick Punto.

Not really. If that were the case, they wouldn't have let him get to free agency. Their original plan was to try to find a way to trade for Mark DeRosa, and when that fell through, they decided to "make a splash" in the free agency market like you're always whining for them to do and guess who the best available middle infielder was?

I guess the Twins really showed the Phillies by "making a splash" and outbidding them.