2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

My issue here with Hcky85 is that she is fixated on the school and team integration issue while throwing 1/5 of the players in the US under the bus with regards to allowing them to compete at the highest level because they all can't go to prep schools within easy drive of one of the major clubs. When my daughter could get transportation to play club from her school, she did and found places to play. One year that required at least 5 hours of driving every Saturday night - Sunday afternoon. She never blamed a loss on bus legs, though.

I’m fixated on school and team integration because playing for your school and playing for your club team are two completely different experiences. Unless two separate leagues are created there will never be a competitive national prep school tournament. No top New England boarding schools will ever go to nationals if their players are being forced to choose one roster to be on.

It seems like Shattuck, NSA and a few others are the only teams actually preventing this from happening because they rather play in the more competitive youth division and aren’t happy with being a prep school. But that’s just it they all are a prep school. So I do favor the exclusion of two or so prep teams (not a 1/5 of US players) from the u-19 division so that an actual competitive prep division can exist. Nothing’s stopping these players (40 to be exact) from signing up for a club team and being able to compete in youth hockey nationals. But these two teams are stopping about 21 NEPSAC schools and 6 or 7 other boarding schools from being able to play in an actual national tournament for prep schools (which seems to be more like 1/5 of US players).

Just start a program near these schools that’s not affiliated with any academy that provides room and board for players. It might not be just that easy, but if it’s such a big deal that these players can’t compete in youth nationals then you’d think someone would be willing to go through the trouble of starting one up. Because it is youth hockey that they want to compete with, I don’t think making them sign up for a youth hockey team is that nonsensical.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

You clearly know nothing about being involved in the startup of a new hockey organization. I've been through it twice. The only way a new club gets any traction in an area without a surplus of talent to keep it preptuating is to have a solid initial recruiting class, a draw (some combination of facility, specialized training, or educational opportunity) that will be a natural magnet for players on a continuing basis.

Over the past five to ten years there has probably been about 20 youth girls programs started up in New England. It can’t be that hard. Especially since we’re talking about starting a program near schools that have tons of talented players but don’t have a competitive youth organization anywhere near them to play on.

When you build a hockey teams’ success by integrating academics and dormitories, it’s no longer a youth program.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

It is sure getting tiring watching you argue agains the large population of experience hockey people around here, most of which have no affiliation with NAHA, but appreciate the idea that the best teams should allowed to play each (not required to as you continue to argue about preps and HS and whatnot) other in an open competition for the 19U National championship.

I'm actually just arguing with the same three people, not the mass population of hockey gurus.

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

You forgot to mention participation in the NAHA Labor Day tournament.


There's been a lot of this going around the past few weeks! Why should this thread be exempt?

But anyway....Other teams from New England have the very same phenomenon, including but not limited to the Charles River, Mass. Spitfires, East Coast Wizards, Connecticut Stars, Polar Bears, Middlesex Islanders, and Woonsocket RI. With the exception perhaps of that last entry, each of the others have also sent at least one team to Nationals at some age group during the past 5 years. Maybe not yet at U19, but some of them are getting close!

Each of these clubs is exactly that, a "club", with a similar program style, and with a similar number of players who participate with their high school teams (not all of them prep school teams, including at Assabet). It's not an Assabet phenomenon, it's a New England phenomenon. Assabet has simply managed to be dominant in Massachusetts, while the Polar Bears and Connecticut Stars have been more dominant for the New England District.

Well actually no I didn't forget. They don't count towards Nationals since Assabet does not finalize their roster until the end of September. That is a tournament team and the NAHA tournament is part of the tryout process.

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Well actually no I didn't forget. They don't count towards Nationals since Assabet does not finalize their roster until the end of September.

True, but it does help to establish continuity as a club team right from the beginning of the year, not withstanding those final roster adjustments.

Relative to the previous poster's arguments about SSM et al being club teams and Assabet maybe not so much, some of those other clubs also participate in non USA Hockey events.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I’m fixated on school and team integration because playing for your school and playing for your club team are two completely different experiences. Unless two separate leagues are created there will never be a competitive national prep school tournament. No top New England boarding schools will ever go to nationals if their players are being forced to choose one roster to be on.

It seems like Shattuck, NSA and a few others are the only teams actually preventing this from happening because they rather play in the more competitive youth division and aren’t happy with being a prep school. But that’s just it they all are a prep school. So I do favor the exclusion of two or so prep teams (not a 1/5 of US players) from the u-19 division so that an actual competitive prep division can exist. Nothing’s stopping these players (40 to be exact) from signing up for a club team and being able to compete in youth hockey nationals. But these two teams are stopping about 21 NEPSAC schools and 6 or 7 other boarding schools from being able to play in an actual national tournament for prep schools (which seems to be more like 1/5 of US players).

Just start a program near these schools that’s not affiliated with any academy that provides room and board for players. It might not be just that easy, but if it’s such a big deal that these players can’t compete in youth nationals then you’d think someone would be willing to go through the trouble of starting one up. Because it is youth hockey that they want to compete with, I don’t think making them sign up for a youth hockey team is that nonsensical.

1) We'll never have a "competitive national prep school tournament" for several reasons. First, NE prep hockey is governed by NEPSAC which has no affiliation with USA Hockey and doesn't want it. NEPSAC also governs all other NE prep sports, so why would they want to slice off hockey? Second, Prep hockey is primarily a product of New England, with a smattering of other schools scattered out through the mid-atlantic, and midwest. The teams from other areas for the most part don't have an organizing structure beyond a couple of leagues. Most organize under USA Hockey for purposes of being allowed to play against other USA Hockey club teams so they have a supply of teams to play against. To segregate them from playing against local club teams during the season would be to effectively shut them down, as the travel for these schools across the US to play each other would be ridiculous. And if they are going to play against club teams in the regular season, why do we insist that they cannot play against them in the National Championship?

2) I already addressed your silly question about starting other club teams nearby on an earlier page if you care to read my posts. Been tried unsuccessfully.

3) Most importantly - The players at the top club level don't care who organizes the team whether it is school, the local rink, the local church, or the a multi-national corportation. The top players and teams want to play each other for a national championship against ANY challenger. If they win a "National Championship", they don't want it to have an asterisk next to it saying "excludes teams formed by schools, churches, and multinational corporations (not that any exist today, but your concept would exclude them as well). Feel free to divide the lower levels of hockey teams any way you like, but an OPEN division Championship deservers to be OPEN to ALL.

So if you feel so passionately that a club team should be started up near Stowe to compete with NAHA, go ahead and start one. See how many NAHA players sign up for a shot at Nationals. My estimate says ZERO. Why? They are getting a great hockey experience and education. Why throw away the hockey experience for a shot at Nationals? They could go to a host of other schools and do just that. Give it up or put your money where your mouth is.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Well actually no I didn't forget. They don't count towards Nationals since Assabet does not finalize their roster until the end of September.

I think it may be 20 games for the team an 10 games for each player. In any case this has been an age old battle between the east coast and everyone else for the boys and the girls. The east coast teams are always all-star type teams of players that play for prep or HS teams and then compete with a National bound team separately.

The issue with NAHA really is not different that the other districts, I am pretty sure NAHA could compete if they ever had a roster that was mostly Vermont residents. I think they have a 2 or 3 player restriction, the problem is that NAHA generally has only 2-3 players from Vermont on their roster.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Over the past five to ten years there has probably been about 20 youth girls programs started up in New England. It can’t be that hard. Especially since we’re talking about starting a program near schools that have tons of talented players but don’t have a competitive youth organization anywhere near them to play on.

When you build a hockey teams’ success by integrating academics and dormitories, it’s no longer a youth program.

Please name 10 new programs in New England in the past 5 to 10 years that field girls teams. Show me 5 that field a team that plays in its district tournament at any age level. And don't include ones that are just renamed versions of the old organization from the same rink.

So, when you actually try to teach girls something else besides hockey, it isn't youth hockey any more? Are they now professionals? If my church forms a girls team, giving them Bible study along with hockey lessons, are they a youth team? Point here is that what you do off the rink with your teammates (as long as it is legal and doesn't violate your amateur status) is irrelevant to whether a team is a youth team.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I think it may be 20 games for the team an 10 games for each player. In any case this has been an age old battle between the east coast and everyone else for the boys and the girls. The east coast teams are always all-star type teams of players that play for prep or HS teams and then compete with a National bound team separately.

The issue with NAHA really is not different that the other districts, I am pretty sure NAHA could compete if they ever had a roster that was mostly Vermont residents. I think they have a 2 or 3 player restriction, the problem is that NAHA generally has only 2-3 players from Vermont on their roster.

Boys have a 20/10 rule (20 games as a team 10 for any player). Girls have a 14/10 rule, as USA Hockey recognizes that 20 games for NE teams wouldn't work with prep hockey and many club teams that have to travel far are set up as tournament teams where they girls dual roster on boys teams.

NAHA's issue is with the equal enforcement of rules within Vermont. The "residency" rule was not enforced in boys hockey specifically for a team that went to Nationals with a large number of NY State residents. As the rule was viewed as abandoned for purposes of the boys, why start enforcing it for the girls? Local politics.

USA Hockey would be much better off with a single residency requirement that is determined by the National board. Unfortunately, they do not seem to want to stand up to their dues paying affilitates who like to run their own fifedoms to the detriment of the sport and the players.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I'm actually just arguing with the same three people, not the mass population of hockey gurus.

Please find me someone here with more than 100 posts (my definition of a long time standing regular) who agrees with you that NAHA shouldn't be allowed to compete at Nationals.

You may start the thread as a NON-anonymous poll, so we can see where people stand if you feel so bold.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

So if you feel so passionately that a club team should be started up near Stowe to compete with NAHA, go ahead and start one. See how many NAHA players sign up for a shot at Nationals. My estimate says ZERO. Why? They are getting a great hockey experience and education. Why throw away the hockey experience for a shot at Nationals? They could go to a host of other schools and do just that. Give it up or put your money where your mouth is.

Exactly, players choose to go to these prep schools. They're making a decision that because of their circumstances, boarding school fits them best. They're not going off to boarding school to play youth hockey.

And I’m more against parents and coaches who refuse to have their players play youth hockey unless they’re put on some national super team. If you want to drive 8 hours to practice a day to play on the team of your choice then do that, I don’t have a problem with it. But don’t start a boarding school that can nationally recruit and whose main objective is to play against youth hockey teams.

I don’t even think NAHA fits under the category of club team or a prep school now. They’ve become more like the women’s version of the U.S.’s NTDP than anything else.

They should start going around and playing colleges like the guys do because they’ve created a situation where they’re in a league of their own. There’s no need to manipulate youth hockey as a way to fix this problem.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Please name 10 new programs in New England in the past 5 to 10 years that field girls teams. Show me 5 that field a team that plays in its district tournament at any age level. And don't include ones that are just renamed versions of the old organization from the same rink.

Arlington
Belmont Rangers
Central Mass Bandits
Canton Girls
Charlestown Girls Hockey
Cheetahs Women’s Hockey
Concord Carlisle Youth Hockey
Eastern Commonwealth Girls Hockey
Friday’s
Hingham Girls Hockey
Ice Sharks
Marblehead
Mass Bay Girls Hockey
Medford
Milton
Natick Comets
Needham Dragons
Nighthawks
North Shore Indians
Peabody Girls Hockey
Pittsfield Girls Hockey
Quincy Girls/Women’s Hockey
Randolph
Reading Girls Hockey
Renegades
Stoneham Unicorns
Storm
Tri-City Girls
VOODOO-Cats
Winthrop


Well that's Mass for you, you can go and read about all of them if you'd like to know about district tournaments too.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Exactly, players choose to go to these prep schools. They're making a decision that because of their circumstances, boarding school fits them best. They're not going off to boarding school to play youth hockey.

And I’m more against parents and coaches who refuse to have their players play youth hockey unless they’re put on some national super team. If you want to drive 8 hours to practice a day to play on the team of your choice then do that, I don’t have a problem with it. But don’t start a boarding school that can nationally recruit and whose main objective is to play against youth hockey teams.

I don’t even think NAHA fits under the category of club team or a prep school now. They’ve become more like the women’s version of the U.S.’s NTDP than anything else.

They should start going around and playing colleges like the guys do because they’ve created a situation where they’re in a league of their own. There’s no need to manipulate youth hockey as a way to fix this problem.

You clearly don't understand the issues that players from non-traditional areas face and favor a policy the effectively bans our kids from playing on a National Bound team. I used to have to drive my daughter 5.5 hours each way to play with the nearest girls club team that could qualify to play in the district tournament to go to nationals. She went to nationals - twice. With the changes to residency rules restricting out of district players such as Vermont uses to keep NAHA out, if I were to have kept her home, my drive would have been 10 hours each way in my own district.

I read the writing on the wall and sent her away to boarding school. Unfortunately, for those of us from the outside we can't get our kids recruited very easily. We have limited choices. Prep school doesn't come with a ride to the local rink on Sunday to play with a club team. There was a year where we were lucky enough to have a teammate whose father coached a club team and took my daughter in to play up a level for his team every weekend in another district. Without this kind of generosity, this type of opportunity would not have existed and prep would have been the only hockey available to her.

If money were not an issue, I would most definitely have considered NAHA or NSA (pretty much the same concept as NAHA except for multiple sports on the same campus).

But you seem to want to kick us folks from non-traditional hockey areas to the curb because we don't have a private jet to come up every weekend and drive our kid to play club hockey because "schools shouldn't be allowed to have club teams". Some supporter of girls hockey you are.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Arlington
Belmont Rangers
Central Mass Bandits
Canton Girls
Charlestown Girls Hockey
Cheetahs Women’s Hockey
Concord Carlisle Youth Hockey
Eastern Commonwealth Girls Hockey
Friday’s
Hingham Girls Hockey
Ice Sharks
Marblehead
Mass Bay Girls Hockey
Medford
Milton
Natick Comets
Needham Dragons
Nighthawks
North Shore Indians
Peabody Girls Hockey
Pittsfield Girls Hockey
Quincy Girls/Women’s Hockey
Randolph
Reading Girls Hockey
Renegades
Stoneham Unicorns
Storm
Tri-City Girls
VOODOO-Cats
Winthrop


Well that's Mass for you, you can go and read about all of them if you'd like to read about district tournaments too.

Thank you for naming every learn-to-skate team in MA. I asked for ones who compete in the District torunament if you can read my post again.

Please include the dates of the sponsoring organization joining USA Hockey and whether they field teams at the "National" bound level. (Most of these do NOT).

You don't seem to understand that what "competitive" youth hockey is.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

ROFLMAO You clearly don't know how much coach referrals have to do with prep recruiting. All coaches know who Carl is. If Carl says Suzy is a finisher to a prep coach, the coach doesn't need to spend hours watching.

Carl doesn't have to do much though as pretty much everyone knows who in MA is playing on which team at Assabet in a given year.

And trust me, the test scores and grade requirements are much lower for a recruited (from Assabet or a few other places as well) player than for applicants in general.

Yes, Carl has a nice location, but there are plenty of other clubs in the region with plenty of access to enough talent. He has a well-oiled machine.

I'm sure Hux or a few others see the effects of Carl and others of his stature on Prep recruiting directly. I believe he's shared at least one such story here (although not naming the club) about how the say-so for a player has gotten a kid not necessarily shopping prep in the door over a weekend.

So while you may have gone to a prep school and attend an Ivy, you haven't necessarily been exposed to the stuff that goes on behind closed doors that a few parents and insiders have had the exposure to.

And you may have heard one extreme story that if true, still doesn't demonstrate how prep school recruiting takes place for the most part. Unless you've been exposed to what's behind closed doors at prep schools or the "recruiting" Carl Grey does, then you really have no idea.

You brag about every inside piece of knowledge you become aware of as if it makes you an insider on all the matters you discuss. And I don't claim to be an insider, but I've been in the door enough (probably like a lot of readers) to be able to see that your much more oblivious to the whole scheme of how things really are or work then you may think.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

And you may have heard one extreme story that if true, still doesn't demonstrate how prep school recruiting takes place for the most part. Unless you've been exposed to what's behind closed doors at prep schools or the "recruiting" Carl Grey does, then you really have no idea.

You brag about every inside piece of knowledge you become aware of as if it makes you an insider on all the matters you discuss. And I don't claim to be an insider, but I've been in the door enough (probably like a lot of readers) to be able to see that your much more oblivious to the whole scheme of how things really are or work then you may think.

I've been in hockey rinks in a lot more states and have talked to far more coaches over my time than I care to count. Most of the coaches I talk to say the exact same thing whether they are from NE or other parts of the country. Recruiting is all about networking. If Carl steers a few players your way, you keep getting them from Carl as long as you keep them progressing in their hockey (i.e. they show up for him on Sunday ready to play). Carl will help marginal players to to marginal schools knowing that he isn't losing anything special. Always plenty more willing to try out.

Really this isn't too different from how college hockey recruiting works (except the club coaches don't get to keep them on Sundays any more ). College coaches make a series of contacts in the coaching world. If those club coaches refer quality players who do well for their program, they keep the college coach's ear. When you are from the outside, you have to work harder just to get coaches to return your calls. Experienced it in prep recruiting. Experienced it in college recruiting.

You may have gone to a prep school and maybe (you haven't said) played hockey for one. You clearly don't play now, and have never been responsible for getting a player to the right tryout or contacting coaches for an evaluation. Someday, if you become a hockey parent, you will quickly realize that you didn't know what those of us who've been through the system know.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

You clearly don't understand the issues that players from non-traditional areas face and favor a policy the effectively bans our kids from playing on a National Bound team. I used to have to drive my daughter 5.5 hours each way to play with the nearest girls club team that could qualify to play in the district tournament to go to nationals. She went to nationals - twice. With the changes to residency rules restricting out of district players such as Vermont uses to keep NAHA out, if I were to have kept her home, my drive would have been 10 hours each way in my own district.

If nationals are so important to a player and their parents, then choose a boarding school that has a nearby youth program. Problem solved.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

If nationals are so important to a player and their parents, then choose a boarding school that has a nearby youth program. Problem solved.

How far can you walk with a goalie bag and 2 sticks and be ready to play?

 

[videohockey]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

How far can you walk with a goalie bag and 2 sticks and be ready to play?

G, why bother? Not even 25 and he/she believes they have the USAH/NAHA issue (and the problems of youth hockey and the world, as well I'm sure) solved. You are not going to convince them otherwise.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

G, why bother? Not even 25 and he/she believes they have the USAH/NAHA issue (and the problems of youth hockey and the world, as well I'm sure) solved. You are not going to convince them otherwise.

Point.