2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

So, if I am reading you correctly, playing out of your district is just fine by you as long as you go to school someplace other than where you play hockey.

Sounds kind of convoluted to me.

In more detail, play for whatever club you'd like. And go to whatever school you'd like too. I just think a youth hockey program should never be capable of or responsible for providing their players with room and board, tuition, and financial aid.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

USA and Canada kill teams because they have a ton of advantages, but nonetheless these advantages aren’t unfair. All countries have to abide by the same citizenship requirements bottom line.

Public high schools and clubs should be in the same league not boarding schools. This isn’t a matter of state lines; it’s not even a matter of regional lines or national lines now. There is a huge unfair advantage with boarding schools being allowed here.

Excuse me, but you might want to do some research on citizenship requirements for teams before making such a statement. My daughter has personally played on a team at US Nationals with a Canadian citizen on the roster. Yes, there are rules allowing this.

I'll give you an example of how Boarding School teams do NOT work with HS teams in the same league: Gilmour Academy in Gates Mills OH.

On the boys side, they have 3 teams. Their JV team plays against local 16U boys teams (non-national bound) in the Cleveland area and does OK. Their Varsity team has dominated HS play in the State HS league for years. Their Prep team (top team) plays USA Hockey 18U and is competitive. This is aligned just fine in my book.

On the girls side, there is no girls HS hockey in the state of Ohio, they play in a prep league with primarily Canadian teams and a couple from NY and play USA Hockey club teams. Haven't made it out of district yet, but regardless, it is the right thing for them to do for their girls (about 1/2 from Ohio with the rest from across the country).

It is a day school ~1000 kids IIRC with about 50-60 boarders, mostly hockey players and internationals, which on your scale would make it a hockey academy in your book and ineligible for Nationals?

My point here is that your black and white idea of dividing hockey isn't so neat.

What do you do with this one,

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Excuse me for having a snotty prep kid.

I'll have you understand that I am in the 15% marginal tax bracket.

Please move your misguided attitude about who plays prep hockey to the USCHO Cafe.

Umm no need to get your undies in a bunch and no need to talk about tax brackets. It was just sarcasm, I went to a New England boarding school too.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

In more detail, play for whatever club you'd like. And go to whatever school you'd like too. I just think a youth hockey program should never be capable of or responsible for providing their players with room and board, tuition, and financial aid.

Then ban the Boston Shamrocks as well, as IIRC they help out with getting girls housed and working with their schooling, as they like to sponsor PGs.

I'm trying to figure out why you have such a visceral dislike of programs that try to provide more than just hockey to young women. Is there a problem with trying to build a program where like people (women hockey players) get an education together?

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Umm no need to get your undies in a bunch and no need to talk about tax brackets. It was just sarcasm, I went to a New England boarding school too.

So why the problem with parents choosing a fully integrated education with hockey program? Is it because they are doing a good job of both?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I mean can’t those snotty privileged prep kids have their parents buy them a different national title?

That is quite the moronic statement coming from you, considering you were backing/supporting those same type of "Privileged" people in another discussion.

Many middle income folks go out of their way to support their child at great lengths with financial sacrifices and have them go to a Prep school. This is especially true of parents with gifted athletic children. Most kids of those very same parents are respectful and appreciate the opportunities handed to them.

IMHO, let the best teams compete if they wish to do so providing they follow the USA National level rules. There should not be any regional overrides, as IMHO the rules of the higher governing body should rule the day.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Excuse me, but you might want to do some research on citizenship requirements for teams before making such a statement. My daughter has personally played on a team at US Nationals with a Canadian citizen on the roster. Yes, there are rules allowing this.

I was responding to a post that refered to advantages in the Olympics to show their point about youth hockey.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Excuse me, but you might want to do some research on citizenship requirements for teams before making such a statement. My daughter has personally played on a team at US Nationals with a Canadian citizen on the roster. Yes, there are rules allowing this.

I believe those rules allow for up to two "imports" on a national bound team. Not sure on the details of it, but I know of several teams that were at Nationals last year with Canadians on it that played in our region in prior years. All those players were attending a "Prep" school in the US.

Up here we also have a two import rule for such things as provincials (our version of states). At the minor (U21 and younger) levels you are only an import for one year. In your second year you are not considered an import.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I was responding to a post that refered to advantages in the Olympics to show their point about youth hockey.

If you want to talk about rules being set up to make Olympic hockey development better, look at the Canadian rules. The residency and competiton rules are unified on a national level. You don't have kids left in no-mans-land because one jurisdiction will recognize your team and the other won't.

Unfortunately, USA Hockey is a bottom up type organization where the local affiliates and districts make many of their own rules, often politically driven to the advantage/disadvantage of other neighboring affiliate/district, while USA Hockey (national) just collects dues and let the locals fight it out. It shows up in everything from team formation, to national camp tryouts, to summer development programs.

A lot of this problem deals with the fact that hockey is organized differently in different regions depending upon the geography, density of players, and traditions.

You are attempting to manage just one of the inequities in hockey competition. There are a lot more layers to this onion than you suspect.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

So why the problem with parents choosing a fully integrated education with hockey program? Is it because they are doing a good job of both?

Still no multi personality disorder on my part. I was fortunate enough that my parents were able to send me to a New England boarding school. I’m an avid supporter of an institution that fully integrates academics and athletics and also concentrates on developing character. I truly believe every parent hands down should send his or her kid to a boarding school. I’m just looking at the issue from both sides and the reality is, not all families have the same privilege of being able to do this.

So I’m trashing the idea that boarding schools belong in the same league as club teams or public high school teams, not boarding schools themself.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I believe those rules allow for up to two imports on a national bound team. Not sure on the details of it, but I know of several teams that were at Nationals last year with Canadians on it that played in our region in prior years. All those players were attending a "Prep" school in the US.

You are correct. In the case with my daughter's teammate, her father was on a long term (multi-year) reassignment with a large company south of the border with the whole family.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Still no multi personality disorder on my part. I was fortunate enough that my parents were able to send me to a New England boarding school. I’m an avid supporter of an institution that fully integrates academics and athletics and also concentrates on developing character. I truly believe every parent hands down should send his or her kid to a boarding school. I mean, it’s what had gotten me into an Ivy League school so I’m not trashing boarding schools.

I’m just looking at the issue from both sides and the reality is, not all families have the same privilege of being able to do this. So I’m trashing the idea that boarding schools belong in the same league as club teams or public high school teams.

Quite frankly, many prep teams in NE would play evenly with many HS teams, but NE prep hockey evolved before USA Hockey existed and never cared to join.

The idea of similar organizations competitng against like organizations has always been at the heart of the concept of fair competition. To this end, if you argue that NAHA is a hockey club that chooses to have a school attached, it is far more like club hockey than Prep or HS hockey and really should be allowed to compete for championships with other club teams.

In any sport, the governing body always opens up a "top" level of competition that is available to all comers. In the NCAA, you can have very small schools in D1 and very large schools in D3. D3 has far more restrictive rules in who can compete and any team that chooses (and can schedule the games) can compete for the D1 (more appropriately known as OPEN) championship. In womens hockey (below college age) that "top" level is the competition to win the the USA Hockey Nationals tournament. All the girls on NAHA meet the qualifications (age, # of games played together, etc.) to compete as a team in the event and would qualify under the USA Hockey national rules, if only their Affiliate (not the district) would let them.

All qualifying teams should be allowed to compete in an OPEN National division.

I've been around this argument before in this thread, but you haven't addressed it.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

If you want to talk about rules being set up to make Olympic hockey development better, look at the Canadian rules.

If you want to talk about rules being set up to make USA youth hockey actually run smoothly then look at New England. They have top club teams, boarding schools, catholic schools, and local high schools and still are able to make a system that’s equally satisfying and fair to them all. Impressive, eh?

If you want to talk about rules being set up for youth hockey, then maybe looking at the rules of every other youth sport here might provide some insight.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

If you want to talk about rules being set up to make USA youth hockey actually run smoothly then look at New England. They have top club teams, boarding schools, catholic schools, and local high schools and still were able to make a system that’s equally satisfying and fair to them all. Impressive, eh?

If you want to talk about rules being set up for youth hockey, then maybe looking at the rules of every other youth sport here might provide some insight.

Uh, you forgot about NAHA. Last I checked, it was in New England.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

There are a number of districts that limit out of district players here in the Midwest. I know Michigan only allows 3 including the non-US citizens at 2. I believe the Mid-American has a restriction as well, but I can't quote it.

For those arguing that Assebet is any less involved in recruiting than SSM, NSA, or NAHA is a joke. Carl is a master at recruiting players, matching them with a Prep school, and then placing them on one of his teams. The Polar Bears are very similar. The only "club" teams at Nationals are generally from the Midwest, look at the rosters for Mission, Little Caesars, etc... they have 80% of their players from within their state.

But, I am sure if you ask they would like to see NAHA in, keep SSM, and anyone else. They want the best teams available. It sounds like the folks complaining would like to see the talent pool water down to the point where their particular "club" team becomes competitive.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

In any sport, the governing body always opens up a "top" level of competition that is available to all comers. In the NCAA, you can have very small schools in D1 and very large schools in D3. D3 has far more restrictive rules in who can compete and any team that chooses (and can schedule the games) can compete for the D1 (more appropriately known as OPEN) championship. In womens hockey (below college age) that "top" level is the competition to win the the USA Hockey Nationals tournament. All the girls on NAHA meet the qualifications (age, # of games played together, etc.) to compete as a team in the event and would qualify under the USA Hockey national rules, if only their Affiliate (not the district) would let them.

All qualifying teams should be allowed to compete in an OPEN National division.

I've been around this argument before in this thread, but you haven't addressed it.

I'm going to suggest that you step back from the keyboard and spend a few weeks reading past threads about the differences between D1 and D3 hockey. First of all, D1 hockey teams are allowed to pay the student's tuition, room and board, and books, should the school wish to pony up. There are several other academic rules that apply so it is far more than a different level, but a difference in qualifications.

Quite frankly, many prep teams in NE would play evenly with many HS teams, but NE prep hockey evolved before USA Hockey existed and never cared to join.

And my point still is...

In more detail, play for whatever club you'd like. And go to whatever school you'd like too. I just think a youth hockey program should never be capable of or responsible for providing their players with room and board, tuition, and financial aid.

Someone who decides to play juniors and get paid before going to college isn't allowed to randomly go back and play in the NCAA. But then I guess you could question the rule by manipulating the situation and see it just as a player who's the same age as college players and who's played for a team equivalent to college level hockey. So really they've just been playing college hockey except for it's integrated with a pay check.

And then anyone who disagress with you, you could accuse them of trashing the idea of someone ever making a living off of playing hockey.

 

[hcky85]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Uh, you forgot about NAHA. Last I checked, it was in New England.

No they'd be a boarding school, they're just not happy with it.

 

[dogwatcher]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Still no multi personality disorder on my part. I was fortunate enough that my parents were able to send me to a New England boarding school. I’m an avid supporter of an institution that fully integrates academics and athletics and also concentrates on developing character. I truly believe every parent hands down should send his or her kid to a boarding school. I mean, it’s what had gotten me into an Ivy League school so I’m not trashing boarding schools.

I’m just looking at the issue from both sides and the reality is, not all families have the same privilege of being able to do this. So I’m trashing the idea that boarding schools belong in the same league as club teams or public high school teams.

So what is your major at this Ivy, I know it is not critical thinking or debate. You are chasing people away from your opniion with your I know it all attitude. By the way you may be a snooty prepy, it would appear so by your posts but most kids I have met from preps are just normal kids regaurdless of Mom or Dads income. I have no ties to NAHA but I believe they should be able to enter a team for Nationals. Your kidding yourself if you think most of these teams are built with local based talent most will take kids from anywhere as long as they play at a high level. Some "Culb teams " do more recruiting then college teams do.

 

[glove]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

welcome to the competitive world of sports.....

 

[gotice]

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

If you’re a parent or player and are willing to drive three hours a day so your kid can play on Assabet instead of some crummy local team up in Vermont, then I think that is far more of a commitment then getting to go to a prep school. And it’s a commitment that is much more deserving of being rewarded too. Getting to go to a boarding school is a privilege, not some ongoing testament of dedication that exhausts the player and their family. Not everyone can afford the price tag on prep schools and the advantages, both athletically and academically, that come with it.

That’s why, realistically, boarding schools are not a youth hockey program. It’s not about top talent it’s about unfair advantages in a youth sport. I mean can’t those snotty privileged prep kids have their parents buy them a different national title?

You are misinformed, if you think that every kid that attends a prep school comes with a silver spoon in their mouth and that there are no sacrifices. With regards to NAHA, many of the girls come from no traditional hockey areas and come from middle class families, that make sacrifices so that their daughters can have opportunities not available in their home areas. These same girls give up some of the everyday experiences of high school to pursue their college dreams.. One person's sacrifice is another person's piece of cake experience. I would say that on average a place like NAHA has more students from non traditional hockey places then most of the other schools in the NE area.

Texas and Alaska are two very large states and hockey is farther than a couple of hours. Girls from Austin and Houston would have to drive at least 4 hours one way to practice with other girls in the DFW area ( the only place where there is one girls prep team) El Paso is 8 hours one way. Alaska is in the same boat. Girls from Florida, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon, NewMexico, and Arizona have little opportunities to play and practice with girls in their area for the most part. at the 19U level, let alone competitive teams. The closest 19U level teams in the south are, Washington, DC area and Dallas Ft Worth. The closest teams for the Western states are in California, Colorado, or Canada. So should all of these girls just give up playing hockey?

Again, those parents who send their girls to prep schools from all of these states, DO make sacrifices and I can guarantee without a doubt, the majority of them are not rolling in the dough with a bunch of expendable income.