0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

[busterman62]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/politics/ralph-norman-gun.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Apparently Gun Owners can break the law whenever they want.

While I am not a lawyer or legal scholar, it seems to me the operative word in the statute ("It is unlawful for a person to present or point at another person a loaded or unloaded firearm.")
is "at". Most, if not all states have laws against brandishing. The Congressman's actions failed to reach the definition of brandishing. While arguably silly, they were little more than a publicity stunt. Not dissimilar to the SC Dems response.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

I'm not sure this is true anymore. It's been true for all our lives, yeah, but things do change. Slavery probably looked immortal in 1850. Most younger people aren't going to put up with our bullsh-t for much longer. They've been very nicely asking us "you know this is a Holocaust -- why haven't you don't anything about it?" and we don't have a good answer. (Louis C. K. voice): "Well, it's just tooooooo haaaaaaard because of all the money from the NRA going to Members." "Really? Well just declare war on those Members and get rid of them and put in people who will back sane policy." "But it's toooooooooooo haaaaaaaard..."

Eventually they're going to be done with us and just grab power and do it themselves. See also: women, blacks, Latinos.

They'll get their chance. Soon. God knows we have done nothing good with this country for the last 38 years. Just shoot all the Olds into space and start over -- we deserve it, we f-cked up.

All of this is why voter suppression is becoming the latest tool of republicans. It has already effected elections, and even though voter suppression happens tens of thousands of times more often than voter impersonation or double voting (the vote fraud trump insists is rampant) not enough of the right people are paying attention to it as an issue. Studies in Wisconsin showed that the ridiculously unnecessary voter ID laws there kept 200,000 people from voting who should have been able to vote during the 2016 general election. Of these, the vast majority were of voters who almost always vote for democratic candidates. trump won Wisconsin by fewer than 23,000 votes. If you voted for republicans I hope you are proud of yourself. republicans don't care about people dying in mass shootings. They don't care about free and fair elections. They don't care about anything except servicing the top 1/10th of the 1%. Your party is actively treasonous. Nearly every elected republican belongs in a cage. At best. Most actually belong at the bottom of an ocean.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

While I am not a lawyer or legal scholar, it seems to me the operative word in the statute ("It is unlawful for a person to present or point at another person a loaded or unloaded firearm.")
is "at". Most, if not all states have laws against brandishing. The Congressman's actions failed to reach the definition of brandishing. While arguably silly, they were little more than a publicity stunt. Not dissimilar to the SC Dems response.

Sounded like brandishing to me. I think any good lawyer could make the argument. You're not supposed to take your gun out in public unless you're going to use it. He wasn't going to use it. It equates to intimidation, what he did, and it's wrong.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

In what world is this true? We've already seen counter-marches by teens and young adults in favor of the second amendment. Teenagers and young adults often mimic the political and social viewpoints of their parents (and that of course is not even universally true) but it's wrong to say every teen or young adult is surrounded by like minded people.

What I'm saying is that when you are in high school and college, you are pretty much surrounded by people who are about the same age as you are, they are going through the same anxiety issues of dating and school and job hunting etc..., as you are. You have a ton in common with the people who surround you every day.

Once you're out in the real world, that changes. I work with people who range in age from 23 to 74. Some aren't even married, others have grandchildren in college. I might play golf with a self-employed business man who is worried about succession planning and with a thirty year old making his way up the corporate ladder in a Fortune 500 company. They have many different types of concerns and issues facing them.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

All of this is why voter suppression is becoming the latest tool of republicans.

Your argument will fall on deaf ears with Kep. The other day he was suggesting IQ tests as a qualifier to vote.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

What I'm saying is that when you are in high school and college, you are pretty much surrounded by people who are about the same age as you are, they are going through the same anxiety issues of dating and school and job hunting etc..., as you are. You have a ton in common with the people who surround you every day.

Once you're out in the real world, that changes. I work with people who range in age from 23 to 74. Some aren't even married, others have grandchildren in college. I might play golf with a self-employed business man who is worried about succession planning and with a thirty year old making his way up the corporate ladder in a Fortune 500 company. They have many different types of concerns and issues facing them.

Sorry Hov, but this explanation is almost as ridiculous as your original statement. The fact is most all of us have things in common with most of the people we come into contact with. But that is hardly the same as being surrounded by people "exactly like you."

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Your argument will fall on deaf ears with Kep. The other day he was suggesting IQ tests as a qualifier to vote.

My post is not an argument with Kep, it is a supplement to the thought he expressed. My guess is he actually shares my concern about the suppression I am citing.

 

[busterman62]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Sounded like brandishing to me. I think any good lawyer could make the argument. You're not supposed to take your gun out in public unless you're going to use it. He wasn't going to use it. It equates to intimidation, what he did, and it's wrong.

OK, which audience member did he brandish at? Why haven't they filed charges? I'll tell you why (borrowing from another case) ....

our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Sorry Hov, but this explanation is almost as ridiculous as your original statement. The fact is most all of us have things in common with most of the people we come into contact with. But that is hardly the same as being surrounded by people "exactly like you."

Neither of my statements are ridiculous. High school in particular is an insular little world. Pretty easy to get caught up in marches and protests on an issue like this one. Once you hit college, and certainly beyond, not so much. If you don't recognize that about high school students, I can't help you.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

OK, which audience member did he brandish at? Why haven't they filed charges? I'll tell you why (borrowing from another case) ....

That's a different standard. I said the argument could be made. That doesn't/never means that a Prosecutor will charge the case. If I had the money, and the time, and I was there I would be arguing it.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Sorry Hov, but this explanation is almost as ridiculous as your original statement. The fact is most all of us have things in common with most of the people we come into contact with. But that is hardly the same as being surrounded by people "exactly like you."

Hey, I have another idea. I argue that once these 16-18 year olds graduate from college, for 95+% of them their activism days will be over. It'll be limited to political rants on Facebook and USCHO Cafe, and voting.

Kep posits something different, and you guys seem to agree.

So I ask this question, and anyone is free to answer. Of course I'll have no way of knowing whether your answer is true or not, but I'll take it at face value.

Assuming you have graduated from college and moved on to the working world, how many days in say the past five years have you skipped work and marched on a capitol or somewhere else as part of a political protest? I'm not talking about a walk to raise money for breast cancer. I mean a BLM protest or an anti-gun (or pro-gun for that matter) protest. Something like that.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Hey, I have another idea. I argue that once these 16-18 year olds graduate from college, for 95+% of them their activism days will be over. It'll be limited to political rants on Facebook and USCHO Cafe, and voting.

Kep posits something different, and you guys seem to agree.

So I ask this question, and anyone is free to answer. Of course I'll have no way of knowing whether your answer is true or not, but I'll take it at face value.

Assuming you have graduated from college and moved on to the working world, how many days in say the past five years have you skipped work and marched on a capitol or somewhere else as part of a political protest? I'm not talking about a walk to raise money for breast cancer. I mean a BLM protest or an anti-gun (or pro-gun for that matter) protest. Something like that.

My answer would be skewed because of what I do for a living, but it's dozens, at least, since 2015. I've marched on 3 state capitols and in other towns all over NE Ohio. Most of that has been in the course of my job, but marching in political protests is not what I do 90% of the time.

 

[busterman62]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

That's a different standard. I said the argument could be made. That doesn't/never means that a Prosecutor will charge the case. If I had the money, and the time, and I was there I would be arguing it.

And it would be an even BIGGER publicity stunt to file charges. Personally, I think it would be funny as $hi+ if someone in the audience did it. Poetic justice at it's finest. However, to actually prove what he did was illegal.... ain't gonna happen.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

In what world is this true? We've already seen counter-marches by teens and young adults in favor of the second amendment. Teenagers and young adults often mimic the political and social viewpoints of their parents (and that of course is not even universally true) but it's wrong to say every teen or young adult is surrounded by like minded people.

In my experience it has been just the opposite. High school was the last place I ever had contact with the Great Unwashed. College is the great filter where you leave the bottom two-thirds of the bell curve behind. Even at work later you only really rejoin the middle third. The bottom third (let's call them "Dumpies" for short) who can't think their way out of a paper bag you never see at all as an adult unless you go sit in the bleachers at a pro sports event.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

My answer would be skewed because of what I do for a living, but it's dozens, at least, since 2015. I've marched on 3 state capitols and in other towns all over NE Ohio. Most of that has been in the course of my job, but marching in political protests is not what I do 90% of the time.

Ok. Well, good for you. You're involved.

Obviously I have no idea what you do for a living. If you're a teacher or a nurse or something like that and belong to a union, you might be inclined to be more politically active as you lobby for higher pay or benefits, etc...

I'm more curious about instances where a person in their thirties or forties decides to go out and march with someone like the BLM marchers, or for gay rights or whatever.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

And it would be an even BIGGER publicity stunt to file charges. Personally, I think it would be funny as $hi+ if someone in the audience did it. Poetic justice at it's finest. However, to actually prove what he did was illegal.... ain't gonna happen.

Yet, under the spirit of the law there is no question he is guilty.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Your argument will fall on deaf ears with Kep. The other day he was suggesting IQ tests as a qualifier to vote.

Let's say it's a suggestion, not a demand.

For now.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Neither of my statements are ridiculous. High school in particular is an insular little world. Pretty easy to get caught up in marches and protests on an issue like this one. Once you hit college, and certainly beyond, not so much. If you don't recognize that about high school students, I can't help you.

This is why there are so rarely fights in high school, everyone agrees all the time and gets along.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

My post is not an argument with Kep, it is a supplement to the thought he expressed. My guess is he actually shares my concern about the suppression I am citing.

I do share it and I agree with your diagnosis: as the GOP's base dies they need to disallow more and more liberal votes to keep their hold on power. Mass incarceration was the start of that. ID laws are the next step.

If and when the Dems have another wave, we can turn all of that off completely. I'd like to see a complete amnesty for all citizens and a law that you can never lose your voting rights short of treason*. The Republican Party has used our court system as an electioneering tool for too long.

* BTW, engaging in paramilitary actions to attack democratic institutions is treason, so I don't mind wiping all the rightwing terrorists off the rolls to start with.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

This is why there are so rarely fights in high school, everyone agrees all the time and gets along.

It has nothing to do with "getting along", nor do I claim everyone is identical. It's that the entire group that you spend a lot of time around has a lot more in common than you might say 20 years later. Again, you're the same age, you're fighting the same peer pressures, you're taking the same classes, etc...