0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

When do gun supporters begin to admit 'yeah, bad behavior with guns is wider than just criminals or the insane'...and therefore, it is the gun that's the problem.

For me it's going to have to be a lot more widespread than it is. There are maybe 325 million people in the U.S. right now, and by all accounts a similar number of guns. The handful of incidents per day/week that are reported, and that you guys eagerly link to in this thread are statistically insignificant to me.

We have what, maybe 12,000 people killed by gunshot (eliminating suicides) each year? We have nearly 2 million car accidents caused by cellphone use while driving, with something like 40,000 people killed, last I saw. That's becoming a problem.

I don't advocate banning cars or banning cellphones.

We have a problem caused by behavior. It's the same with gun violence. We have to address behavior if you want to reduce the problem. Banning cellphones would be stupid.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

For me it's going to have to be a lot more widespread than it is. There are maybe 325 million people in the U.S. right now, and by all accounts a similar number of guns. The handful of incidents per day/week that are reported, and that you guys eagerly link to in this thread are statistically insignificant to me.

We have what, maybe 12,000 people killed by gunshot (eliminating suicides) each year? We have nearly 2 million car accidents caused by cellphone use while driving, with something like 40,000 people killed, last I saw. That's becoming a problem.

I don't advocate banning cars or banning cellphones.

We have a problem caused by behavior. It's the same with gun violence. We have to address behavior if you want to reduce the problem. Banning cellphones would be stupid.

And yet there are plenty of laws already in place that ban the mix of driving while using a cell phone, or require hands free use. The behavior of carrying a gun seems to be a problem, let's just keep them at ranges. Behavior problem solved.

 

[Drew S.]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/us/politics/ralph-norman-gun.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Apparently Gun Owners can break the law whenever they want.

And how is this different than what David Gregory did on meet the press? That was just as illegal.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

And yet there are plenty of laws already in place that ban the mix of driving while using a cell phone, or require hands free use. The behavior of carrying a gun seems to be a problem, let's just keep them at ranges. Behavior problem solved.

Oddly enough there are laws in place that prohibit people from shooting up a school with their gun. Weird how both the shootings and the distracted driving continues.

 

[Drew S.]

Looking for 'solutions' to mass killings? Start with punishing failure. While I am firmly in the camp of doing far more at both the state and federal level when it comes to gun safety legislation -- eliminating civilian purchase or possession of weapons of war, limiting magazine capacity for semi-automatic handguns, better funding for education and mental health -- the failure to enforce laws already on the books is certainly a place we could start without the need to change ANY law anywhere. But God forbid we hold them accountable. Conservatives decry the supposed "inefficiencies" and "failures" of public entities all the time, but of course law enforcement (and the military) can do no wrong and far too many leaders in various uniforms face zero consequences when they fail to do their jobs. Words conservatives don't like get a California teacher fired, but actual failure to take steps that would have prevented mass shootings carry no consequences.

Posted the same thing last week and was criticized heavily for it.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

For me it's going to have to be a lot more widespread than it is. There are maybe 325 million people in the U.S. right now, and by all accounts a similar number of guns. The handful of incidents per day/week that are reported, and that you guys eagerly link to in this thread are statistically insignificant to me.

We have what, maybe 12,000 people killed by gunshot (eliminating suicides) each year? We have nearly 2 million car accidents caused by cellphone use while driving, with something like 40,000 people killed, last I saw. That's becoming a problem.

I don't advocate banning cars or banning cellphones.

We have a problem caused by behavior. It's the same with gun violence. We have to address behavior if you want to reduce the problem. Banning cellphones would be stupid.

1. Cars and cell phones add incredible value to the quality of life for society...guns make society worse. There's no harm in limiting guns.

2. Deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents...guns are the-go-to weapon to ensuring and maximizing killing. We have strong reasons to limit guns.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

1. Cars and cell phones add incredible value to the quality of life for society...guns make society worse. There's no harm in limiting guns.

2. Deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents...guns are the-go-to weapon to ensuring and maximizing killing. We have strong reasons to limit guns.

1. That's an opinion, and one that many people don't share. It all depends upon whose ox is being gored.

2. Some deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents, just as some deaths from guns are unfortunate accidents. Actually, the go to weapons for maximizing killing
are jumbo jets and ammonium nitrate bombs, but I digress.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Posted the same thing last week and was criticized heavily for it.

Law enforcement has a difficult enough job solving crimes that have actually been committed. Placing the burden on them to solve crimes that might be committed is to ask the impossible, unless you can show some sort of conspiracy.

 

[Drew S.]

1. Cars and cell phones add incredible value to the quality of life for society...guns make society worse. There's no harm in limiting guns.

2. Deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents...guns are the-go-to weapon to ensuring and maximizing killing. We have strong reasons to limit guns.

There are millions of crime victims who would disagree with you. There are bad people in this world whether guns exist or not. Guns are a means of protection from them. I say this as someone who has fortunately never been a victim of a crime and doesn’t carry very often. I have had a couple close calls though and have family members who are victims of bad crimes.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

1. That's an opinion, and one that many people don't share. It all depends upon whose ox is being gored.

2. Some deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents, just as some deaths from guns are unfortunate accidents. Actually, the go to weapons for maximizing killing
are jumbo jets and ammonium nitrate bombs, but I digress.

Nukes are the desired weapon for mass killing, but the fact that they are unattainable makes guns the go-to weapon for maximizing killing. And equating the value of cars to society with guns?

You're more living proof that many gun owners are disconnected from reality. These behaviors flag that owners do in fact represent dangers to society.

There are millions of crime victims who would disagree with you.

Millions? Many victims of crime are now major control advocates - Parkland families anyone? How many are gun rights activists?

 

[burd]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

1. That's an opinion, and one that many people don't share. It all depends upon whose ox is being gored.

2. Some deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents, just as some deaths from guns are unfortunate accidents. Actually, the go to weapons for maximizing killing
are jumbo jets and ammonium nitrate bombs, but I digress.

Death by sugar is not an intended consequence, so sugar cannot be considered a weapon (though those deaths are certainly foreseeable), but it arguably causes more injury and death than any other "instrument" of death.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

1. That's an opinion, and one that many people don't share. It all depends upon whose ox is being gored.

2. Some deaths from cars are unfortunate accidents, just as some deaths from guns are unfortunate accidents. Actually, the go to weapons for maximizing killing
are jumbo jets and ammonium nitrate bombs, but I digress.

If there were no cars and no phones, people would die due to the lack of them, as in we couldn't summon help as quickly and we couldn't get them TO the help as quickly. If there were no guns, no people would die from gunfire. There is no way an objective person could argue that the net has been negative due to the inventions of cars and phones.

And how many people have been killed by aircraft crashes that were not accidents in the last year? The last 5 year? Since the invention of the airplane? Illegal gunfire has killed 1000s of times more people than aircraft crashes of all types, let alone intentional crashes. And again, no objective person can say the invention of the airplane and jet aircraft has been a net negative for the human race.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

Nukes are the desired weapon for mass killing, but the fact that they are unattainable makes guns the go-to weapon for maximizing killing. And equating the value of cars to society with guns?

You're more living proof that many gun owners are disconnected from reality. These behaviors flags that owners do in fact represent dangers to society.

I really like how nukes have become the Godwin's law of gun control arguments. Oh, hey everyone, we prohibit people from owning nukes, and that works. Why don't we do the same for guns. It's really hard to imagine a sillier argument than that one.

However, I'll post this again. The only "gun control" that's going to work, at least how you guys want it to work, is to completely ban private ownership of guns and start the confiscation program. But I think we can all see the problems with that. First, the political will to take that step simply doesn't exist. Second, I'm not sure it would even be legal unless the 2nd amendment is repealed. Third, the costs of such a program would be way more than a government would be willing to pay.

Making people wait a set period to buy a gun, having a background check, even requiring something akin to a drivers license won't work. I don't even necessarily oppose them, except out of principal. It ticks me off when politicians pass meaningless laws in order to pat themselves on the back, when the reality is that they haven't accomplished anything. The temporary ban on the sale of assault weapons is a case in point. But if Congress or the state legislature want to pass those measures, you won't hear me gripe about it.

But those band aid maneuvers won't prevent aggrieved students from returning to school and shooting their classmates. It won't protect employers and employees from a disgruntled former employee. It won't protect wives from husbands.

But take your shot.

I am really, really hoping that the "blue wave" everyone anticipates actually arrives in 2018-2020. Because then I expect to see this legislation passed. And then I get to come on here and post in "Guns Thread XXII" a question -- Wha happened?

 

[BassAle]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

I am really, really hoping that the "blue wave" everyone anticipates actually arrives in 2018-2020. Because then I expect to see this legislation passed. And then I get to come on here and post in "Guns Thread XXII" a question -- Wha happened?

we all know nothing meaningful will actually be passed, even after a Blue Wave. Probably the best we will see is closing of the gun show loophole and banning sales of new AR-15 (and similar) rifles and high capacity magazines. The millions of assault weapons that are circulation will continue to be legal to own. No one will have to obtain a license to purchase guns and ammunition (and in my opinion it should be required to provide proof that you've had some kind of training and you have legally purchased a gun that matches the type of ammo you are trying to purchase)

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

However, I'll post this again. The only "gun control" that's going to work, at least how you guys want it to work, is to completely ban private ownership of guns and start the confiscation program. But I think we can all see the problems with that. First, the political will to take that step simply doesn't exist. Second, I'm not sure it would even be legal unless the 2nd amendment is repealed. Third, the costs of such a program would be way more than a government would be willing to pay.

Making people wait a set period to buy a gun, having a background check, even requiring something akin to a drivers license won't work. I don't even necessarily oppose them, except out of principal. It ticks me off when politicians pass meaningless laws in order to pat themselves on the back, when the reality is that they haven't accomplished anything. The temporary ban on the sale of assault weapons is a case in point. But if Congress or the state legislature want to pass those measures, you won't hear me gripe about it.

This is primarily the state because society's been screwed by this special interest group for decades. The same as it was with smoking.

The current best/possible solution is - allow guns, but keep them in the home, gun ranges, designated hunting areas, and car trunks. Clean up the streets...and put the risk solely on you and yours.

 

[aparch]

...No one will have to obtain a license to purchase guns and ammunition...

Illinois already has this with their Firearm Owner ID card.

It's a minimal cost ($10), and requires passing the federal background check. And the card is good for 10 years.

No firearms or ammunition can be purchased in the state without the card. (There are exceptions for out of state buyers.)

 

[Kepler]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

we all know nothing meaningful will actually be passed, even after a Blue Wave.

I'm not sure this is true anymore. It's been true for all our lives, yeah, but things do change. Slavery probably looked immortal in 1850. Most younger people aren't going to put up with our bullsh-t for much longer. They've been very nicely asking us "you know this is a Holocaust -- why haven't you don't anything about it?" and we don't have a good answer. (Louis C. K. voice): "Well, it's just tooooooo haaaaaaard because of all the money from the NRA going to Members." "Really? Well just declare war on those Members and get rid of them and put in people who will back sane policy." "But it's toooooooooooo haaaaaaaard..."

Eventually they're going to be done with us and just grab power and do it themselves. See also: women, blacks, Latinos.

They'll get their chance. Soon. God knows we have done nothing good with this country for the last 38 years. Just shoot all the Olds into space and start over -- we deserve it, we f-cked up.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

I'm not sure this is true anymore. It's been true for all our lives, yeah, but things do change. Slavery probably looked immortal in 1850. Most younger people aren't going to put up with our bullsh-t for much longer. They've been very nicely asking us "you know this is a Holocaust -- why haven't you don't anything about it?" and we don't have a good answer. (Louis C. K. voice): "Well, it's just tooooooo haaaaaaard because of all the money from the NRA going to Members." "Really? Well just declare war on those Members and get rid of them and put in people who will back sane policy." "But it's toooooooooooo haaaaaaaard..."

Eventually they're going to be done with us and just grab power and do it themselves. See also: women, blacks, Latinos.

They'll get their chance. Soon. God knows we have done nothing good with this country for the last 38 years. Just shoot all the Olds into space and start over -- we deserve it, we f-cked up.

It's nice to think the young people will take over. We certainly need more political engagement, not less, in this country. But you'll have to mark me down as skeptical at this point.

In high school and college it's easy to be caught up in causes. You're surrounded by nothing but people exactly like you, with the same interests and fears.

The problem is, life then takes over. You graduate, you get married, you have kids, you get a mortgage, you're worried about your job and the million things that seem to occupy your life every single day. You become disengaged. And frankly the danger becomes more remote to you.

We'll see, I guess.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

In high school and college it's easy to be caught up in causes. You're surrounded by nothing but people exactly like you, with the same interests and fears.

In what world is this true? We've already seen counter-marches by teens and young adults in favor of the second amendment. Teenagers and young adults often mimic the political and social viewpoints of their parents (and that of course is not even universally true) but it's wrong to say every teen or young adult is surrounded by like minded people.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 0 Days Since Last Shooting: Guns, Guns, And More Guns

In high school and college it's easy to be caught up in causes. You're surrounded by nothing but people exactly like you, with the same interests and fears.

ROTFLMAO

What High School did you go to? There was no one like me in High School. Or College. That's the most ridiculous blanket statement I think I have ever seen.