Gun control 2 : happy 25th anniversary of Columbine

[Handyman]

Who wre the semi smart conservatives? I remember wackjobs like Sicatoka and Bob Ryan.

 

[SJHovey]

For the guy who absolutely hates politicians who congratulate themselves for allegedly accomplishing nothing with watered-down compromise bills, you sure seem to like congratulating yourself, Hovey.

That said, your thought process is still wrong with this Supreme Court. I probably mocked you then, and I’ll mock you now…if you think that this narrow ruling, after how many in a row against gun restrictions, signals a shift by this SCOTUS on gun rights in general…well…you’re a lot dumber than I estimated.

They just struck down a ban on bump stocks last year…were you congratulating us for being right then? I, uh, doubt it.

It's not a shift, and I don't think that I claimed that it was. It's just an example of how small, incremental changes, can lead to bigger changes.

 

[psych]

It's not a shift, and I don't think that I claimed that it was. It's just an example of how small, incremental changes, can lead to bigger changes.

Okay, sure, I’d buy that argument…except the plaintiff wasn’t a “gun control” group, the ruling was exceptionally narrow, and actually left the door open to rule that other gun starter kits could be exempt from the already loosey-goosey laws when brought in front of this Court in the future, which would be the opposite of what you’re arguing…and did I mention this Court? But, you know, other than all signs pointing to this Court favoring a broad expansion/interpretation of what constitutes gun ownership in this country, based on their last dozen or so rulings on the matter, yeah, sure, your argument holds water.

 

[Handyman]

Did you expect him to actually understand beyond the basics?

 

[psych]

Yes. I think that’s my problem. Yes, I do. How he even remotely thinks that fits his narrative is hurtful to my senses, so then I start thinking he’s gaslighting me and it’s working.

 

[dxmnkd316]

T

I think he’s trolling at this point…and I’m taking the bait every time. Mea culpa. I just want a semi-smart conservative on this board, but I’m afraid we’ve run them off.

You are absolutely wrong.

There are several on the board right now. They just happen to vote straight ticket D nowadays. I count at least four who moved from at LEAST Fark Independent to at least center left.

If they want to name themselves, they can. But I used to be center right and now I'm probably on the left side of center left.

 

[Kepler]

You are absolutely wrong.

There are several on the board right now. They just happen to vote straight ticket D nowadays. I count at least four who moved from at LEAST Fark Independent to at least center left.

If they want to name themselves, they can. But I used to be center right and now I'm probably on the left side of center left.

I thought all of this was obvious and some of you were just joking, but as it seems, regrettably, to be needed, dx is correct.

The Dump - Coward side is not a coherent political ideology. It is a small cadre of grifters and gangsters behind which cowers a large group of cowards and profiteers. Concepts of governance have left the building. We do not face a political struggle. This is crime writ large.

Those of us against them, this board, aren't identifiable in our opposition as being Left, liberal, or even other-than-radical-Right. We're freeholders trying to protect ourselves from a ransacking horde. Our political differences haven't collapsed; they just don't matter at the moment. We've got a bigger problem now.

 

[Kepler]

Have you had The Talk yet?

 

[RaceBoarder]

I don't think I've hidden from the fact that my feelings on many of the matters are probably somewhat right of the line on a truly neutral/objective assessment...

But given the current situation, I'm viewed as Bernie by many on the Right and MTG by the Left.

 

[Handyman]

I thought all of this was obvious and some of you were just joking, but as it seems, regrettably, to be needed, dx is correct.

The Dump - Coward side is not a coherent political ideology. It is a small cadre of grifters and gangsters behind which cowers a large group of cowards and profiteers. Concepts of governance have left the building. We do not face a political struggle. This is crime writ large.

Those of us against them, this board, aren't identifiable in our opposition as being Left, liberal, or even other-than-radical-Right. We're freeholders trying to protect ourselves from a ransacking horde. Our political differences haven't collapsed; they just don't matter at the moment. We've got a bigger problem now.

Yeah sorry, I dont agree with this at all. Well better stated, I dont think it really has anything to do with the discussion at hand. At this point the term "conservative" much like "Republican" has been co-opted to the point that it is only synonymous with the current version of the Right. "Smart Conservatives" are no longer conservative...they are just fooling themselves with a descriptor that is no longer apt out of some misguided belief that because they might think overspending is bad that makes them Right of Center...they aren't. In point of fact, at this point they are at best Center.

You have pointed it out in the past, the idea of the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" person is a farce. That is what these former conservatives think they are. But if you really listen tot he things they say (or read their posts) they dont sound like conservatives, they sound like us. True conservatives would never sound like us. They might be socially agnostic, but they would never openly fight for the civil rights of people that don't have them...they would never even entertain the idea of funding social programs at the level we do or adding more like socialized medicine. AOC would make their skin crawl...Bernie would have them seething.

What you are saying is correct but it is not the proper argument here imho. The only real conservatives now are religious conservatives. The fiscal conservatives are either frauds like everyone in the GOP or disappeared into pragmatism and TDS like most of the former GOP. When people like Bill Kristol are defending the rights of Trans People (which I believe did happen) they are no longer conservative.

 

[Handyman]

I don't think I've hidden from the fact that my feelings on many of the matters are probably somewhat right of the line on a truly neutral/objective assessment...

But given the current situation, I'm viewed as Bernie by many on the Right and MTG by the Left.

To me you feel like a Centrist...but not the lazy kind like in the Dem Leadership

 

[psych]

T

You are absolutely wrong.

There are several on the board right now. They just happen to vote straight ticket D nowadays. I count at least four who moved from at LEAST Fark Independent to at least center left.

If they want to name themselves, they can. But I used to be center right and now I'm probably on the left side of center left.

Raceboarder is saying he’s one. Like Handy said, I don’t even identify him as one, but I won’t question him, so I’ll cede this point to you.

I thought all of this was obvious and some of you were just joking, but as it seems, regrettably, to be needed, dx is correct.

The Dump - Coward side is not a coherent political ideology. It is a small cadre of grifters and gangsters behind which cowers a large group of cowards and profiteers. Concepts of governance have left the building. We do not face a political struggle. This is crime writ large.

Those of us against them, this board, aren't identifiable in our opposition as being Left, liberal, or even other-than-radical-Right. We're freeholders trying to protect ourselves from a ransacking horde. Our political differences haven't collapsed; they just don't matter at the moment. We've got a bigger problem now.

I’m not sure why it’s regrettable, per se. I want a healthy debate. If Raceboarder is the center/center-right, well, then I’ll admit I’m blind to our differences in the face of fascism. I think I connect with him on a class level as well, so, to an extent, I’ll cede your point. But, I have trouble placing Hovey alongside Raceboarder. Maybe a character flaw, either in him or me, or both. That’s what prompted my mini whine-fest in the first place.

Yeah sorry, I dont agree with this at all. Well better stated, I dont think it really has anything to do with the discussion at hand. At this point the term "conservative" much like "Republican" has been co-opted to the point that it is only synonymous with the current version of the Right. "Smart Conservatives" are no longer conservative...they are just fooling themselves with a descriptor that is no longer apt out of some misguided belief that because they might think overspending is bad that makes them Right of Center...they aren't. In point of fact, at this point they are at best Center.

You have pointed it out in the past, the idea of the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" person is a farce. That is what these former conservatives think they are. But if you really listen tot he things they say (or read their posts) they dont sound like conservatives, they sound like us. True conservatives would never sound like us. They might be socially agnostic, but they would never openly fight for the civil rights of people that don't have them...they would never even entertain the idea of funding social programs at the level we do or adding more like socialized medicine. AOC would make their skin crawl...Bernie would have them seething.

What you are saying is correct but it is not the proper argument here imho. The only real conservatives now are religious conservatives. The fiscal conservatives are either frauds like everyone in the GOP or disappeared into pragmatism and TDS like most of the former GOP. When people like Bill Kristol are defending the rights of Trans People (which I believe did happen) they are no longer conservative.

I can buy this too. *sigh* I don’t know how I can see every side of this “argument.” Didn’t think we’d even have such an extensive conversation about it. I was merely disappointed with Hovey’s…whatever that was…and expressed my exasperation.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

You have pointed it out in the past, the idea of the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" person is a farce. That is what these former conservatives think they are. But if you really listen tot he things they say (or read their posts) they dont sound like conservatives, they sound like us. True conservatives would never sound like us. They might be socially agnostic, but they would never openly fight for the civil rights of people that don't have them...they would never even entertain the idea of funding social programs at the level we do or adding more like socialized medicine. AOC would make their skin crawl...Bernie would have them seething.

"Scratch a so-called libertarian and you'll find a fascist underneath"

 

[RaceBoarder]

Psych,

I think part of the issue is that the board here limits our views. Being in Kentucky, you're immersed in "Southern Culture", your view in daily life is significantly different than Kepler's. JJ being in Alaska is another perspective that is going to vary greatly from how we may see things here in the Lower 48. DGF and Slap Shot have lived internationally for extended periods of time. Socially, we're all going to have significantly different perspectives on the "norm" of daily life.

The financial diversity here is also something that shouldn't be overlooked (and very well may become the main "split" in the country in the next 10-20 years instead of Left/Right).

Despite out diversity, the board does lack perspective from several large chunks of society. Any aspect of their life is viewed from our 2nd hand position, not a 1st hand account. That's just the nature of USCHO.

(And I'll fully admit that all of this can be a source of frustration/friction at times here)

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

The financial diversity here is also something that shouldn't be overlooked (and very well may become the main "split" in the country in the next 10-20 years instead of Left/Right).

Class has always been the real divider in America, the rich and their media outlets just do a really good job of distracting Joe Six Pack by convincing him that it's race.

 

[Handyman]

Look...I don't think perspective plays much into it. It's basic common sense versus lack of logic because of how things shifted. That is why "Right of Center" voters and pols shifted Left. The last of the true small L libertarians left the Right long ago because modern conservatism is about larger government and telling citizens what to do and how to think. Even Reagan Republicans (barely conservative) have walked away from modern conservatism. Listen to Anti Trump conservatives talk...they are now liberal than half our leadership.

Thinking at this point is no longer a conservative action in any way.

If the country was smarter than a 6th grader on average Trump loses badly.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Look...I don't think perspective plays much into it. It's basic common sense versus lack of logic because of how things shifted. That is why "Right of Center" voters and pols shifted Left. The last of the true small L libertarians left the Right long ago because modern conservatism is about larger government and telling citizens what to do and how to think. Even Reagan Republicans (barely conservative) have walked away from modern conservatism. Listen to Anti Trump conservatives talk...they are now liberal than half our leadership.

Thinking at this point is no longer a conservative action in any way.

If the country was smarter than a 6th grader on average Trump loses badly.

Perspective would be a divider if we didn’t live in such an interconnected world. Like, yes I live in Alaska but it’s not like the 70’s where TV programs were two weeks behind the rest of the country and lines of communication were horrendously expensive and tightly controlled. I have a pretty good sense of how the rest of the world works. If I’ve learned anything it’s that Alaska’s solutions to similar problems are really fucking stupid.

 

[Handyman]

Perspective would be a divider if we didn’t live in such an interconnected world. Like, yes I live in Alaska but it’s not like the 70’s where TV programs were two weeks behind the rest of the country and lines of communication were horrendously expensive and tightly controlled. I have a pretty good sense of how the rest of the world works. If I’ve learned anything it’s that Alaska’s solutions to similar problems are really fucking stupid.

Great point!

 

[SJHovey]

Okay, sure, I’d buy that argument…except the plaintiff wasn’t a “gun control” group, the ruling was exceptionally narrow, and actually left the door open to rule that other gun starter kits could be exempt from the already loosey-goosey laws when brought in front of this Court in the future, which would be the opposite of what you’re arguing…and did I mention this Court? But, you know, other than all signs pointing to this Court favoring a broad expansion/interpretation of what constitutes gun ownership in this country, based on their last dozen or so rulings on the matter, yeah, sure, your argument holds water.

You are 100% correct. It was an extremely narrow decision. But, and this is the important part, it went in favor of gun control.

I really do believe what I posted a few years ago, that gun control advocates could successfully copy the playbook of abortion opponents. I'll admit, I thought their attempts were futile. But they got the laws passed in favorable jurisdictions, got courts in favorable jurisdictions to rule in their favor, and got those cases heard by the Supreme Court. After time, and most importantly after they got additional sympathetic ears on the Court, the dog caught the car.

There is no reason why gun control advocates can't do the same thing. The makeup of the Court doesn't remain the same, indefinitely. It took the abortion people 50 years.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

LOL. Yeah, that's never happening.