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Cops: No Snarky Nor Positive Title

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dxmnkd316 said:
58% of police killings began with non-violent offences. (Actually, at least 58%. 71 were unknown.)

Ey1G4esXAAE54ZG
Click to expand...

I almost posted that yesterday. Very sobering...
 
The Sicatoka said:
There's a great question: Why were they unholstered at all? Had a weapon been seen? Was it because of the nature of the warrant for arrest (past illegal weapons possession)?
Click to expand...

It's incredible to me that a "taser" was even drawn. At no point did he represent a lethal threat to anyone. A taser is a cattle prod to gain compliance in a non-threatening situation. But that's how it's used in far too many cases. If the kid drives off, so fucking what? Go pick him up and tack on evading arrest and resisting.

Police chases are one of the dumbest and most dangerous things we allow in society. Especially for warrants, tickets, etc. Unless it's a felony warrant, let the guy go.
 
Handyman said:
And Hovey, you may be right that most of the time something the driver does leads to escalation, but you need only look at the Black Army Officer in Maryland who was pulled over (wrongfully) and had his hands outside of the car the whole time to see that compliance doesn't stop any of this.
Click to expand...
Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bgWQXhrdw

I disagree that he was compliant.

First, when they flashed their lights, he drove on for more than a minute and a half, which is a fairly long time if you sit and time it.

He says he wanted to find a well lit location. Ok, so he found his location. The cops don't know that. They don't know what he might be doing in the car.

Then, he was instructed to turn off his car, roll down his window and put his hands out. Hard to tell if he shut off his car, but he did stick his hands out the window.

However, at that point he became non-compliant. He was repeatedly instructed to exit the vehicle, but he refused. Instead he started with the questions. In fact, it was his refusal to exit the vehicle that ultimately resulted in him getting pepper sprayed.

Now, do I agree with how the cops initially approached the car? Not necessarily. However, I haven't heard their explanation for why their guns were drawn.

However, I believe that if he had exited the car as instructed, in all likelihood he doesn't end up getting sprayed.
 
I did a quick search for LEO deaths in 2020. Covid killed 2x as many cops as all other causes combined. COMBINED. (and half of the remaining deaths were not the result of violence towards police.)

[TABLE="width: 228"]
[TR]
[TD]Total Line of Duty Deaths[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]359[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]COVID19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]231[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gunfire[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Automobile crash[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9/11 related illness[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vehicular assault[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Struck by vehicle[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heart attack[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Duty related illness[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Drowned[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gunfire (Inadvertent)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Motorcycle crash[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vehicle pursuit[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aircraft accident[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Assault[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heatstroke[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Last edited:
SJHovey said:
Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bgWQXhrdw

I disagree that he was compliant.

First, when they flashed their lights, he drove on for more than a minute and a half, which is a fairly long time if you sit and time it.

He says he wanted to find a well lit location. Ok, so he found his location. The cops don't know that. They don't know what he might be doing in the car.

Then, he was instructed to turn off his car, roll down his window and put his hands out. Hard to tell if he shut off his car, but he did stick his hands out the window.

However, at that point he became non-compliant. He was repeatedly instructed to exit the vehicle, but he refused. Instead he started with the questions. In fact, it was his refusal to exit the vehicle that ultimately resulted in him getting pepper sprayed.

Now, do I agree with how the cops initially approached the car? Not necessarily. However, I haven't heard their explanation for why their guns were drawn.

However, I believe that if he had exited the car as instructed, in all likelihood he doesn't end up getting sprayed.
Click to expand...

Well, the cop got fired so... Maybe, just for a second, consider de-escalating instead of pulling weapons, screaming, assaulting him, and dragging him out of the car. You know, for a change.
 
SJHovey said:
Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bgWQXhrdw

I disagree that he was compliant.

First, when they flashed their lights, he drove on for more than a minute and a half, which is a fairly long time if you sit and time it.

He says he wanted to find a well lit location. Ok, so he found his location. The cops don't know that. They don't know what he might be doing in the car.

Then, he was instructed to turn off his car, roll down his window and put his hands out. Hard to tell if he shut off his car, but he did stick his hands out the window.

However, at that point he became non-compliant. He was repeatedly instructed to exit the vehicle, but he refused. Instead he started with the questions. In fact, it was his refusal to exit the vehicle that ultimately resulted in him getting pepper sprayed.

Now, do I agree with how the cops initially approached the car? Not necessarily. However, I haven't heard their explanation for why their guns were drawn.

However, I believe that if he had exited the car as instructed, in all likelihood he doesn't end up getting sprayed.
Click to expand...

How's he supposed to exit the vehicle with his hands out of the window?

And if he pulled them back in to open the door, you'd be saying he's non-compliant for not keeping his hands where the cops could see them.

There was no way for this guy to win. And because he's black, that could mean a death sentence.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Well, the cop got fired so... Maybe, just for a second, consider de-escalating instead of pulling weapons, screaming, assaulting him, and dragging him out of the car. You know, for a change.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that cops can do a better job trying to de-escalate situations.

Also, I don't ever judge the actions of a cop based upon the outcome his or her employer imposed.
 
SJHovey said:
Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bgWQXhrdw

I disagree that he was compliant.

First, when they flashed their lights, he drove on for more than a minute and a half, which is a fairly long time if you sit and time it.

He says he wanted to find a well lit location. Ok, so he found his location. The cops don't know that. They don't know what he might be doing in the car.

Then, he was instructed to turn off his car, roll down his window and put his hands out. Hard to tell if he shut off his car, but he did stick his hands out the window.

However, at that point he became non-compliant. He was repeatedly instructed to exit the vehicle, but he refused. Instead he started with the questions. In fact, it was his refusal to exit the vehicle that ultimately resulted in him getting pepper sprayed.

Now, do I agree with how the cops initially approached the car? Not necessarily. However, I haven't heard their explanation for why their guns were drawn.

However, I believe that if he had exited the car as instructed, in all likelihood he doesn't end up getting sprayed.
Click to expand...

Really cause the cops even said him driving to the BP made sense because it was lighted. (read the lawsuit or watch the video of when he is detained) I was friggin instructed to do that in Drivers Ed. It is for the safety of me and the cop.

They had zero reason for why their guns are drawn, you can read all about it in the complaint which I linked when I posted about it. Even in their BS report they had no reason...at no point are they in danger it is a routine stop for a weak traffic violation. He had no warrants and he wasn't acting up.

In fact they had no reason to even pull the guy over. They said he "didn't have a license plate" but he had the temp in his window. By the time they exited their vehicles they knew they had no justification for anything. THEY ESCALTED IT. He did nothing worthy of being pepper sprayed except ask why he was pulled over, which he has a right to do and they never told him. They had no probable cause for anything let alone using force on a guy who is in no position to attack them. And how exactly is he supposed to exit the vehicle if he has his hands out the window? Why would he risk making it look like he is reaching for a gun by opening the door? I wouldn't and I am a friggin White Man.

You can hem and haw all you want to and twist yourself in a pretzel but the cops are 100% at fault for all of this. They knew it too which is why they threaten him at the end of the interaction. (if you report this we will tell your superior and screw your military career) They even get their buddy the EMT to try and mitigate it by saying they were scared because of BLM.
 
Last edited:
dxmnkd316 said:
I did a quick search for LEO deaths in 2020. Covid killed 2x as many cops as all other causes combined. COMBINED. (and half of the remaining deaths were not the result of violence towards police.)

[TABLE="width: 228"]
[TR]
[TD]Total Line of Duty Deaths[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]359[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]COVID19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]231[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gunfire[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Automobile crash[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9/11 related illness[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vehicular assault[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Struck by vehicle[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heart attack[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Duty related illness[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Drowned[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gunfire (Inadvertent)[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Motorcycle crash[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vehicle pursuit[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aircraft accident[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Assault[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heatstroke[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

Yeah I posted that stat this summer in the COVID thread. Cops fear for their life because a water bottle is thrown in their general direction (and use force in response) but they are more likely to die because some redneck won't wear a mask when he is yelling the cop had no right to pull him over. (funny that non-compliance never leads to death)
 
I admittedly got my law degree from Law & Order University, but in both cases, isn't there a case for depraved indifference? Especially with the Chauvin case. The defense if pushing that George Floyd died because of drugs in his system, or whatever. OK, let's say that's the case. That STILL doesn't mean you should kneel on his neck for 9 minutes. If you thought he was having cardiac issues, or whatever, call an ambulance and try to keep him alive. That way he survives and you can make sure he goes to jail. But instead, you kneel on his neck and do nothing to help him to ensure he survive and make sure he goes to jail. With her, yes, she seems contrite, but she did shoot the guy.

Every time I watch a police drama and the bad guys are getting away by car, the police shoot at the car. And I always yell "SHOOT THE TIRES!" Because then the car doesn't get away (or it's more difficult). On that same thought - when watching police dramas and the police shoot a suspect who is running away, I always yell "SHOOT AT THE LEGS!" because they always wind up shooting the perp in the chest, or head or whatever and the perp dies. Why did Officer Potter have to shoot where it would kill him? Even if she was going to taser him. Taser the arm or something. I know not all police officers are the best shot yet they seem to always shoot where it does the most damage.
 
Handyman said:
Really cause the cops even said him driving to the BP made sense because it was lighted. (read the lawsuit or watch the video of when he is detained) I was friggin instructed to do that in Drivers Ed. It is for the safety of me and the cop.

They had zero reason for why their guns are drawn, you can read all about it in the complaint which I linked when I posted about it. Even in their BS report they had no reason...at no point are they in danger it is a routine stop for a weak traffic violation. He had no warrants and he wasn't acting up.

In fact they had no reason to even pull the guy over. They said he "didn't have a license plate" but he had the temp in his window. By the time they exited their vehicles they knew they had no justification for anything. THEY ESCALTED IT. He did nothing worthy of being pepper sprayed except ask why he was pulled over, which he has a right to do and they never told him. They had no probable cause for anything let alone using force on a guy who is in no position to attack them. And how exactly is he supposed to exit the vehicle if he has his hands out the window? Why would he risk making it look like he is reaching for a gun by opening the door? I wouldn't and I am a friggin White Man.

You can hem and haw all you want to and twist yourself in a pretzel but the cops are 100% at fault for all of this. They knew it too which is why they threaten him at the end of the interaction. (if you report this we will tell your superior and screw your military career) They even get their buddy the EMT to try and mitigate it by saying they were scared because of BLM.
Click to expand...

Not sure what the laws are in MD, but drawing a weapon like that inappropriately should carry criminal charges. Make the cops determine there's an imminent and deadly threat before they even draw their weapon. Once the weapon is drawing, the chance of someone dying goes up several, several, several orders of magnitude. And for what? Because he had "bad" tags? F. That. Until there's a demonstrated threat, keep it in your holster.
 
SJHovey said:
Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bgWQXhrdw

I disagree that he was compliant.

First, when they flashed their lights, he drove on for more than a minute and a half, which is a fairly long time if you sit and time it.

He says he wanted to find a well lit location. Ok, so he found his location. The cops don't know that. They don't know what he might be doing in the car.

Then, he was instructed to turn off his car, roll down his window and put his hands out. Hard to tell if he shut off his car, but he did stick his hands out the window.

However, at that point he became non-compliant. He was repeatedly instructed to exit the vehicle, but he refused. Instead he started with the questions. In fact, it was his refusal to exit the vehicle that ultimately resulted in him getting pepper sprayed.

Now, do I agree with how the cops initially approached the car? Not necessarily. However, I haven't heard their explanation for why their guns were drawn.

However, I believe that if he had exited the car as instructed, in all likelihood he doesn't end up getting sprayed.
Click to expand...

Random black guy: I'm afraid to get out of my vehicle

Cop: You should be

Random black guy: Oh, ok then, getting right out.

Nothing you won't excuse, eh Hovey?
 
Handyman said:
Really cause the cops even said him driving to the BP made sense because it was lighted. (read the lawsuit or watch the video of when he is detained) I was friggin instructed to do that in Drivers Ed. It is for the safety of me and the cop.

They had zero reason for why their guns are drawn, you can read all about it in the complaint which I linked when I posted about it. Even in their BS report they had no reason...at no point are they in danger it is a routine stop for a weak traffic violation. He had no warrants and he wasn't acting up.

In fact they had no reason to even pull the guy over. They said he "didn't have a license plate" but he had the temp in his window. By the time they exited their vehicles they knew they had no justification for anything. THEY ESCALTED IT. He did nothing worthy of being pepper sprayed except ask why he was pulled over, which he has a right to do and they never told him. They had no probable cause for anything let alone using force on a guy who is in no position to attack them. And how exactly is he supposed to exit the vehicle if he has his hands out the window? Why would he risk making it look like he is reaching for a gun by opening the door? I wouldn't and I am a friggin White Man.

You can hem and haw all you want to and twist yourself in a pretzel but the cops are 100% at fault for all of this. They knew it too which is why they threaten him at the end of the interaction. (if you report this we will tell your superior and screw your military career) They even get their buddy the EMT to try and mitigate it by saying they were scared because of BLM.
Click to expand...

Why didn't he just get out of the car when they asked him to? He's at a well lit gas station, that probably has security cameras. I've been asked by law enforcement to get out of my car before. I had no idea why (to this day I still have no idea why).
 
LynahFan said:
So you can tap as many married women as you want? Hmmmm...is Ashley Madison still a thing?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you have to have plain ol' sex with them.

609.293 SODOMY.
Subdivision 1.Definition.

"Sodomy" means carnally knowing any person by the anus or by or with the mouth.
...
Subd. 5.Consensual acts.

Whoever, in cases not coming within the provisions of sections 609.342 or 609.344, voluntarily engages in or submits to an act of sodomy with another may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.
History:

1967 c 507 s 4; 1977 c 130 s 4; 1984 c 628 art 3 s 11

NOTE: The Hennepin County District Court found section 609.293 unconstitutional as applied to private, noncommercial acts by consenting adults in Doe v. Ventura, No. 01-489 (4th Dist. Ct. Hennepin County, May 15, 2001). In Devescovi v. Ventura, 195 F. Supp. 2d 1146 (D. Minn. 2002), the United States District Court found that, since the decision was not appealed, the Hennepin County District Court decision is binding state law.
Click to expand...
 
SJHovey said:
Here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bgWQXhrdw

I disagree that he was compliant.

First, when they flashed their lights, he drove on for more than a minute and a half, which is a fairly long time if you sit and time it.

He says he wanted to find a well lit location. Ok, so he found his location. The cops don't know that. They don't know what he might be doing in the car.

Then, he was instructed to turn off his car, roll down his window and put his hands out. Hard to tell if he shut off his car, but he did stick his hands out the window.

However, at that point he became non-compliant. He was repeatedly instructed to exit the vehicle, but he refused. Instead he started with the questions. In fact, it was his refusal to exit the vehicle that ultimately resulted in him getting pepper sprayed.

Now, do I agree with how the cops initially approached the car? Not necessarily. However, I haven't heard their explanation for why their guns were drawn.

However, I believe that if he had exited the car as instructed, in all likelihood he doesn't end up getting sprayed.
Click to expand...

The driver escalated it??? Wow.

So the cops were to dumb to understand that a black man wanted to get to a lit spot- ok, fine. At the same time, the cops never explained what was going on. He CALMLY asked what was going on, and their reply was that he was about to get shot for not complying.

By suggesting that the driver was at fault for not complying says that the cops can tell you to do whatever they want, whenever they want, under any conditions, and you have to do it at risk of being shot. Give me a break.

You have guns being pointed at you, and it's your fault that you don't want to get out of the car?

Why in the world would that situation even need guns drawn???? At what point was there a capitol offence done, and where was ANY indication that the cops should be afraid for their lives???? If he pulled over in a dark alley, or a dark field, that would be a danger- but in a very well lit location that probably had security cameras? To assume personal danger to that extent is exactly why cops need retrained.

People have the right to ask why they are being stopped or charged. That's not an escalation of anything, that's exercising your right.

I'm still shocked that the driver can be blamed for escalation from the start. Jeez. We are never going to make progress if we always side with the cops in a situation like this.
 
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