Cops: No Snarky Nor Positive Title

[The Sicatoka]

Officer Whoops has to be convicted of whatever "was an idiot and killed somebody by mistake" is. Murder 2? Is there a Murder 3? There's no way to avoid that. She may even cop to it (get it?) for leniency. She can't be a cop anymore, either, obviously. There's always barber college.

She's guilty of something, but I'm not a DA to know the specific charge.

She ain't coming at me with scissors or razor.

 

[SJHovey]

Officer Whoops has to be convicted of whatever "was an idiot and killed somebody by mistake" is. Murder 2? Is there a Murder 3? There's no way to avoid that. She may even cop to it (get it?) for leniency. She can't be a cop anymore, either, obviously. There's always barber college.

I worry Chauvin gets off. The Defense is spreading FUD and the Prosecution is reduced to trying to debunk every single claim and if they miss one he skates. That is justice, I am not knocking the system, but Average Joe just doesn't have the mental horsepower to pick through all this as a juror.

Like voting, the best argument against is a five minute conversation with the average person.

It has to be second degree manslaughter for the recent shooting. Nothing else fits. Third degree murder requires a depraved mind. Second degree murder requires intent, or the commission of a felony.

Even first degree manslaughter doesn't work since it requires intent, or circumstances that don't exist here (like punishing a child or selling drugs).

Second degree manslaughter is "culpable negligence" and that is what occurred here.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Imagine if it was your job to go into a warehouse and open up boxes. In 999 of them there was a kitten. But in one, as soon as you opened it up a bomb would explode. The boxes aren't pre-identified.

The Schroedinger cat conundrum writ lethal outside the box.

 

[The Sicatoka]

It has to be second degree manslaughter for the recent shooting. Nothing else fits. ... Second degree murder requires intent ...

Second degree manslaughter is "culpable negligence" and that is what occurred here.

Had the cop and victim interacted in the past? The DA had better be doing due diligence.

Second degree manslaughter sounds low but as you explain ...

 

[Kepler]

It has to be second degree manslaughter for the recent shooting. Nothing else fits. Third degree murder requires a depraved mind. Second degree murder requires intent, or the commission of a felony.

Even first degree manslaughter doesn't work since it requires intent, or circumstances that don't exist here (like punishing a child or selling drugs).

Second degree manslaughter is "culpable negligence" and that is what occurred here.

It's meaning to cause non-lethal harm that results in accidental death due to your miscalculation. That seems like more than culpable negligence. It's not like you failed to clean your icy sidewalk and I fell. It's you pushed me on your icy sidewalk and I fell.

An officer slams a suspect to the ground unaware that there is a rattlesnake underneath him which kills him. Whazzat? Is negligent homicide a real thing or just for the teevee?

 

[unofan]

Aim is more important in a death situation. Barney Fife is already a pathetic enough shot.

99.99% of police interactions have zero lethal danger, so we should have elite armed units that are deployed to those situations. In cases in which the danger is unannounced, they can take their chances like the rest of us, with no weapon. Lose the shades, too.

Ending drug laws and disarming 90% of officers would go a long way towards ending the Overseer Officer strut. But, of course, some people don't want that to end. It was, indeed, the entire point.

Slavery never ended.

Farking pizza delivery drivers are more likely to get shot than a cop. Yet they don't go to every stop with one hand on a gun or shoot people who open the door too quickly and startle them.

 

[Kepler]

Farking pizza delivery drivers are more likely to get shot than a cop. Yet they don't go to every stop with one hand on a gun or shoot people who open the door too quickly and startle them.

That's because RWAs don't slobber the knobs of pizza delivery drivers.

 

[Kepler]

Most cops are not great on the range, so agree there. But one can easily transition to dominant hand. Safe hand to hand transition while in a shooting sequence is a required part of ND CC testing. If I can do it so should a cop be able to. (Side bar to brag: I had to requalify for my CC about six months ago but was having issues with my dominant wrist from a work injury. I requal'd using my non-dominant hand as "dominant", and vice-versa, during the on-range testing)


... but how in the < bleep > can you call "Taser" more than once and not realize you're holding the Glock ...

Hyped up I guess? So afraid everything else is shut out? Perception is weird.

I read a link that said police in traumatic situations in which they discharge their weapons sometimes report they never heard their weapon go off. Guns are loud.

We are saggy, smelly bags of chemicals, not well-engineered machines. Consciousness is a process that is emergent from those chemicals. It corresponds to the outside world usually, otherwise we would be a bad evolutionary bet, but if you change the chemical mix through drugs or hormones your mind starts showing a movie that has nothing to do with what's going on outside you.

 

[SJHovey]

It's meaning to cause non-lethal harm that results in accidental death due to your miscalculation. That seems like more than culpable negligence. It's not like you failed to clean your icy sidewalk and I fell. It's you pushed me on your icy sidewalk and I fell.

An officer slams a suspect to the ground unaware that there is a rattlesnake underneath him which kills him. Whazzat? Is negligent homicide a real thing or just for the teevee?

Ok. Here are the Minnesota statutes. You figure it out. I've given my opinion.

First degree murder https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.185

Second degree murder https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

Third degree murder https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

First degree manslaughter https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20

Second degree manslaughter https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205

 

[rufus]

Most cops are not great on the range, so agree there. But one can easily transition to dominant hand. Safe hand to hand transition while in a shooting sequence is a required part of ND CC testing. If I can do it so should a cop be able to. (Side bar to brag: I had to requalify for my CC about six months ago but was having issues with my dominant wrist from a work injury. I requal'd using my non-dominant hand as "dominant", and vice-versa, during the on-range testing)


... but how in the < bleep > can you call "Taser" more than once and not realize you're holding the Glock ...

You, brag about how great you are? Noooooooo..........

For MichVandal. They're black. Therefore, a threat. Cop should approach them with his hand on his weapon.

Jungle animals. Violent by nature. Huge, massive, strong. Cop needs that weapon to even the odds.

 

[Kepler]

Ok. Here are the Minnesota statutes. You figure it out. I've given my opinion.

First degree murder https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.185

Second degree murder https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

Third degree murder https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

First degree manslaughter https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20

Second degree manslaughter https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20

Thanks (some of the links look truncated but I'll figure it out). Work blocks, I'll research at home. I should know the differences anyway. I assume states are mostly similar.

 

[SJHovey]

Hyped up I guess? So afraid everything else is shut out? Perception is weird.

I read a link that said police in traumatic situations in which they discharge their weapons sometimes report they never heard their weapon go off. Guns are loud.

We are saggy, smelly bags of chemicals, not well-engineered machines. Consciousness is a process that is emergent from those chemicals. It corresponds to the outside world usually, otherwise we would be a bad evolutionary bet, but if you change the chemical mix through drugs or hormones your mind starts showing a movie that has nothing to do with what's going on outside you.

Here is my view.

I think we have every right to demand perfection of a cop carrying a loaded handgun during interaction with members of the public. It's sort of like I demand perfection from the guy flying my 737 or doing my back surgery.

But I am not naive enough to expect perfection. Cops are human, just like the rest of us. Furthermore, they aren't even the best and brightest of us.

This woman made a huge, deadly mistake, and a guy is dead because of it. There will be consequences to her and to the city that employed her. The family will be paid a lot of money, none of which is enough but its the only method we have. The woman will lose her career, forever, and likely faces a pretty serious criminal charge that will probably lead to a period of incarceration, although she isn't going away for murder, and she will be walking the streets in a few years.

That is just the way it is, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[SJHovey]

Thanks (some of the links look truncated but I'll figure it out). Work blocks, I'll research at home. I should know the differences anyway. I assume states are mostly similar.

The second degree manslaughter link I screwed up and linked to the first degree manslaughter again, but I corrected it in my original post.

 

[Kepler]

Here is my view.

I think we have every right to demand perfection of a cop carrying a loaded handgun during interaction with members of the public. It's sort of like I demand perfection from the guy flying my 737 or doing my back surgery.

But I am not naive enough to expect perfection. Cops are human, just like the rest of us. Furthermore, they aren't even the best and brightest of us.

This woman made a huge, deadly mistake, and a guy is dead because of it. There will be consequences to her and to the city that employed her. The family will be paid a lot of money, none of which is enough but its the only method we have. The woman will lose her career, forever, and likely faces a pretty serious criminal charge that will probably lead to a period of incarceration, although she isn't going away for murder, and she will be walking the streets in a few years.

That is just the way it is, nothing more, nothing less.

There is more, though. It's the fact that she was so rattled that she made a mistake. That isn't on her. It is a combination of systemic forces that have been building for a century:

(1) Over policing.
(2) Aggression in LEO. Barking orders, screaming, brandishing.
(3) The Black Super Male myth that every black man is a lethal threat.
(4) Racism that every black person is a criminal.

Those 4 things caused this death. Office Whoops was just the instrument of death. But those 4 things all lie at the root of America's cop problem, and they are all courtesy of the fear and violence of racist white authoritarians.

 

[Kepler]

The second degree manslaughter link I screwed up and linked to the first degree manslaughter again, but I corrected it in my original post.

Thanks. Their numbering is so law. It's dumb but it's theirs so by golly they're going to keep using it. See also legal size paper and WordPerfect.

 

[The Sicatoka]

(2) ... brandishing.

There's a great question: Why were they unholstered at all? Had a weapon been seen? Was it because of the nature of the warrant for arrest (past illegal weapons possession)?

 

[MichVandal]

Here is my view.

I think we have every right to demand perfection of a cop carrying a loaded handgun during interaction with members of the public. It's sort of like I demand perfection from the guy flying my 737 or doing my back surgery.

But I am not naive enough to expect perfection. Cops are human, just like the rest of us. Furthermore, they aren't even the best and brightest of us.

This woman made a huge, deadly mistake, and a guy is dead because of it. There will be consequences to her and to the city that employed her. The family will be paid a lot of money, none of which is enough but its the only method we have. The woman will lose her career, forever, and likely faces a pretty serious criminal charge that will probably lead to a period of incarceration, although she isn't going away for murder, and she will be walking the streets in a few years.

That is just the way it is, nothing more, nothing less.

That all sounds find and dandy. But it also misses the point where the cops are escalating the situations.

Their "fear" of the situation spreads to the accused person they are with. They are the ones yelling, and giving the cops credit for being human misses the fact that the other person is human too- and will react to being threatened by anyone. Let alone Black people and cops.

It's one thing to go into a situation not knowing if the person is armed or not- it's another to take a pretty calm situation where the person is NOT armed, and escalate it to "requiring" force, where that can lead to injury and death.

Stop pulling people over because you suspect them of X- wait until a crime actually is reported. Go to the home to serve a warrant, as opposed to pulling over someone that might have a warrant. And sometimes, it's worth life to let someone run.

Everyone is human in this equation, but the cops have an significant arms advantage; and they use that to get a mental advantage- and then ignore that all of that has an impact on the other person.

 

[unofan]

Thanks (some of the links look truncated but I'll figure it out). Work blocks, I'll research at home. I should know the differences anyway. I assume states are mostly similar.

The model criminal code that is taught in law school has 4 primary levels of homicide. The short, short version:

Murder 2 is the default, and is the intentional killing of another human with malice aforethought. It also includes depraved heart killings.

murder 1 is simply murder 2 + an aggravating factor (premeditation, killing a cop, felony murder, etc).

voluntary manslaughter is the intentional killing of someone without malice aforethought. So heat of passion crimes, primarily, or other killings where the person intentionally committed the act but under circumstances that society understands to reduce the culpability.

involuntary manslaughter, also sometimes called negligent homicide, is the unintentional killing of another but under circumstances where you are still criminally liable. Traditionally these are self defense claims gone bad, or vehicular homicides due to speeding, things like that. Think my criminal law final had an example of a Russian roulette game that was supposed to be "fixed" so no one would get hurt, but they screwed up the fix and someone died.

 

[SJHovey]

That all sounds find and dandy. But it also misses the point where the cops are escalating the situations.

Their "fear" of the situation spreads to the accused person they are with. They are the ones yelling, and giving the cops credit for being human misses the fact that the other person is human too- and will react to being threatened by anyone. Let alone Black people and cops.

It's one thing to go into a situation not knowing if the person is armed or not- it's another to take a pretty calm situation where the person is NOT armed, and escalate it to "requiring" force, where that can lead to injury and death.

Stop pulling people over because you suspect them of X- wait until a crime actually is reported. Go to the home to serve a warrant, as opposed to pulling over someone that might have a warrant. And sometimes, it's worth life to let someone run.

Everyone is human in this equation, but the cops have an significant arms advantage; and they use that to get a mental advantage- and then ignore that all of that has an impact on the other person.

Breonna Taylor might beg to differ with you.

Again, I've never claimed that cops are perfect or that they don't play a role in the problems that exist.

But it is pretty rare in these cases to not see the driver take the first step at causing a problem. The minute the driver starts "pushing back" (I don't necessarily mean literally pushing back), the cop is going to escalate things.

So the minute the driver starts with "why do I have to get out of the car" or "why are you pulling me over" or "you don't have a right to stop me" or anything like that, and starts objecting to the instructions given by the cop, the cop is going to immediately conclude he or she has a non-cooperating witness, and that escalates it.

Does someone deserve to get shot for asking a question? No, of course not. But they have escalated the situation. Why escalate the situation when they have a gun and the right to use it, and you don't?

You almost never see one of these cases (I can't think of any) where the driver literally follows every single instruction of the cop, and then the cop shoots him. It just doesn't happen. There is always an argument, there is always an attempt to jump back in the car, or to grab something out of the car, or something.

 

[rufus]

There's a great question: Why were they unholstered at all? Had a weapon been seen? Was it because of the nature of the warrant for arrest (past illegal weapons possession)?

Young black man.

You need any other reason?