Welcome folks, to the Biden administration!

[unofan]

There is a .000001% chance you would say that if you didn't go to SUNY-Ithaca ;^)

The Ivies are about 75-25 merit selection. The other 25 percent are recruited athletes, legacies, and kids whose parents bought their way in.

That's 25 percent too many, but Kepler is right that the difference between a top 25 school and a top 100 school isn't at the top of the class, but at the median level of student. And that goes double for graduate schools.

The Ivies aren't the end all be all, but if the choice is a Harvard grad versus a Phoenix University grad, yes the Harvard grad is gonna start with a leg up. But anyone with half a brain should be able to tell within 5 minutes if they got there on merit or for $$$ reasons.

 

[unofan]

Even Trump went to a f-ing Ivy.

Penn barely counts.

 

[Handyman]

The Ivies are about 75-25 merit selection. The other 25 percent are recruited athletes, legacies, and kids whose parents bought their way in.

That's 25 percent too many, but Kepler is right that the difference between a top 25 school and a top 100 school isn't at the top of the class, but at the median level of student. And that goes double for graduate schools.

The Ivies aren't the end all be all, but if the choice is a Harvard grad versus a Phoenix University grad, yes the Harvard grad is gonna start with a leg up. But anyone with half a brain should be able to tell within 5 minutes if they got there on merit or for $$$ reasons.

I am not disputing any of that. All I am saying is if Kepler went to a non-Ivy he would be writing 12 paragraph soliloquies about how they are overrated and how there is no difference between someone who went to a major university and an Ivy.

Basically I am calling him a fraud. But he went to Cornell so that is implied ;^) Sometimes when he posts I just have Andy Bernard in my head!

 

[Kepler]

I am not disputing any of that. All I am saying is if Kepler went to a non-Ivy he would be writing 12 paragraph soliloquies about how they are overrated and how there is no difference between someone who went to a major university and an Ivy.

And if you had had better SATs you would be arguing that admission requirements matter.

For any given person there is no difference between someone who went to a major university and an Ivy. The smartest kid in the world may live on the West Coast in which case why go to an Ivy when you have Stanford and Cal? Or they may be technically-minded in which case why go to an Ivy when you have CalTech and MIT? Or they may be artistic in which case why go to an Ivy when you have Williams and Swarthmore? Or they may have sh-tty rightwing parents and wind up at Liberty or sh-tty leftwing parents and wind up at Reed.

Or they may just prefer to go to State U.

So any given person may be anywhere.

The statistical distribution of those kids in larger sample sizes still favors the Ivies (plus another half dozen great schools from Chicago to UCLA) for reasons that range from good (insane amounts of resources, great financial aid packages) to mundane (professional networking) to awful (designer label, idiot bragging rights). And indeed as a poster said at least 25% of the students I met as an undergrad were there for the wrong reasons because they were sent there by empty-headed rich parents for a credential. They were still "smart" -- but it was the wily cleverness of snotty prep school kids; the Harry Lime type who always managed to leave the room just before the cops broke up the poker game. The Ted Cruz / Dubya kind of punchable face who was there to get a credential so he could use it to shiv somebody else. But that still left 75% who were great.

This whole anti-Ivy farmboy tub thumping routine is just another arm of our American anti-intellectual tradition. It's how we wind up with "I want a business man in office, not some pointy head" combined with rube resentment about "Eastern Bias." It's as parochial as the guys we saw rushing the Capitol Building. "I'll show them I'm as good as they are!"

Jesus f-ck, people. Nobody said you weren't. Nobody thinks about you one way or the other. Grow up.

 

[Kepler]

Penn barely counts.

Penn counts but the "Penn" Dump "attended" is a degree mill like the Kennedy School at Harvard. It's a joke annex of Wharton, which is a business school, and business school is a joke in itself (except MIT -- those guys are actually the real thing, even if they are wasting their lives).

 

[SJHovey]

The son of a former business partner of mine is the only person I've ever met who went to Cornell. Extremely bright kid. Was very successful at Cornell. Met his future wife there. He got a great job at a Fortune 500 company right out of school.

Currently he lives in Switzerland. His wife is a major player for an international company. He stays home and skis with the kids. Hasn't held a job for maybe 10 years.

I'm going to be honest. My observations of what happened to him have improved my view of Cornell and the Ivies over the years.

 

[Kepler]

And that goes double for graduate schools.

Well, the name of the school is meaningless for grad school. It's all about the department, and the best department could be anywhere. The best philosophy departments in the United States over the last thirty years included the University of Arizona and Rutgers. For reals. Because there were a handful of people there doing the best work in the world in their field.

That doesn't mean all grad schools are the same. It just means you can't judge a grad department by the name of the school it happens to be affiliated with. It is as if it was completely accidental.

 

[Kepler]

The son of a former business partner of mine is the only person I've ever met who went to Cornell. Extremely bright kid. Was very successful at Cornell. Met his future wife there. He got a great job at a Fortune 500 company right out of school.

Currently he lives in Switzerland. His wife is a major player for an international company. He stays home and skis with the kids. Hasn't held a job for maybe 10 years.

I'm going to be honest. My observations of what happened to him have improved my view of Cornell and the Ivies over the years.

That guy has my life. To whom do I complain?

Actually, it depends. Is she a redhead?

 

[Handyman]

Jesus f-ck, people. Nobody said you weren't. Nobody thinks about you one way or the other. Grow up.

Touch a nerve Nard Dog? It was a joke ;^)

I went to a Land Grant University, a private grad school, teach at a Community College and my GF went to a State School. (cause she got it for free) I don't give a crap where anyone went I make fun of them all. I know someone who went to a top flight school for mathematics and is literally one of the dumbest people I have ever met. (good at math though!) I know people who went to laughably mediocre schools that could educate all of us on a variety of topics. (I still mock them though!) Hell the only person I dont mock for his education is my friend who dropped out. Smartest man I know!

To me it is the person, not the school. I chose what school I was going to long before I ever thought about the requirements. I never would have considered going to an Ivy even if I had the grades. Probably never would have applied. Those places are way too high pressure for a student like me. I am honestly awed by the people who can handle it. (see also: Stanford and schools like U of Chicago) Just not me. My school and grad school were perfect for me.

Put it this way Nard Dog...I am making fun of you cause I consider you a friend. Plus...who doesnt love mocking people who constantly remind you how great they are cause they went to an Ivy?! It is why the Andy Bernard character is perfect, he is every Ivy League student! If we cant mock each other whats the point?

 

[Kepler]

I went to a Land Grant University

So did I.

The university was founded at a time when higher education was predominately sought by the entitled classes. Most universities educated only the most privileged, and taught exclusively elite subjects (today’s liberal arts offerings–think classics, literature, etc.). There just was no notion that education should be for all, nor that colleges should work towards the betterment of everyone in society. However, through the Morrill Act in the 1860’s, Cornell’s unique curriculum–which included “agriculture and mechanic arts [now engineering]” –was formulated to improve the lives of citizens by addressing the educational needs of those in New York State (which was, and still is, very agriculturally based).

We're the good guys. We're the only Ivy whose motto is in English. That's the nerve you hit.

 

[Proud2baLaker]

Well, the name of the school is meaningless for grad school. It's all about the department, and the best department could be anywhere. The best philosophy departments in the United States over the last thirty years included the University of Arizona and Rutgers. For reals. Because there were a handful of people there doing the best work in the world in their field.

That doesn't mean all grad schools are the same. It just means you can't judge a grad department by the name of the school it happens to be affiliated with. It is as if it was completely accidental.

I think this can be true for some, albeit more niche, undergrad degrees/departments too. There might be 50 schools across the nation that have some niche degree but it probably isn't uncommon for some smaller no name school to be considered the best for it vs some larger more "prestigious" school. The area that comes to mind for me as I am in that field would be Fisheries. Quite a few larger schools still offer some specialization in that field but often its such a small part of a larger department that its not really special. Or they come out with a basic "BS Biology" and maybe did a thesis project on it. Some smaller schools however have far more resources put into it than others and it shows. Had a guy at my company for a while that had his degree in "Natural Resources" and took maybe 1 fish related class and raised some stuff in little aquaria at his house. He was convinced he knew everything because he went to a bigger state school. Meanwhile he learned pretty quick that they didnt offer nearly the education that others did and that at my much smaller schools for my undergrad and grad I got way more rigorous training and experience and was miles ahead of him.

 

[Kepler]

I think this can be true for some, albeit more niche, undergrad degrees/departments too. There might be 50 schools across the nation that have some niche degree but it probably isn't uncommon for some smaller no name school to be considered the best for it vs some larger more "prestigious" school. The area that comes to mind for me as I am in that field would be Fisheries.

That's true. If your "major" is alpine skiing you probably want to go to Denver or Utah.

 

[Kepler]

These are fun.

 

[Proud2baLaker]

These are fun.

The cannabis and fermentation degrees are becoming more popular actually. Both of my alma maters now offer cannabis science degrees and I think one now has fermentation sciences.

 

[Scarlet]

To get this thread back on track....

No comment on Mayah Mahty Walsh for Secretary of Labor??

 

[Slap Shot]

I went to a public HS (albeit a very good one), then the U and MSUM. Never went to graduate school. I didn't go into an "anyone can do that field" like finance. But I have college professors in my family, both of my wife's parents were college professors, blah, blah.

We do quite well because we paid attention to the world and had parents that cared and were vested. Now we don't want for anything and we will be able to continue to travel the world comfortably. Ivies are great I won't besmirch them but the vast majority that have made something of life didn't attend one.

 

[St. Clown]

I went to a public HS (albeit a very good one), then the U and MSUM. Never went to graduate school. I didn't go into an "anyone can do that field" like finance. But I have college professors in my family, both of my wife's parents were college professors, blah, blah.

We do quite well because we paid attention to the world and had parents that cared and were vested. Now we don't want for anything and we will be able to continue to travel the world comfortably. Ivies are great I won't besmirch them but the vast majority that have made something of life didn't attend one.

There's an economic study out there on the impact of attending an Ivy League school. For most people who both qualify and can pay for an Ivy League education, the benefits are negligible when compared with the people of same socio-economic background, grades, etc. that attended a good state or other private school. The people for whom it matters are disadvantaged minorities, and other people who grew up poor. For rich people it's actually a net loss on the money side as it turns out that rich people almost always find a way to make the next generation rich as well.

 

[Kepler]

There's an economic study out there on the impact of attending an Ivy League school. For most people who both qualify and can pay for an Ivy League education, the benefits are negligible when compared with the people of same socio-economic background, grades, etc. that attended a good state or other private school. The people for whom it matters are disadvantaged minorities, and other people who grew up poor. For rich people it's actually a net loss on the money side as it turns out that rich people almost always find a way to make the next generation rich as well.

Unless that study adjusted for what they did with their degree it's worthless. Rich people who go to top ranked schools often go for liberal arts in order to go into academia, teaching, or non-profit work. The project isn't to make money because they already have more than they'll ever spend.

Remember: at the top end of the spectrum (wealth and intelligence) people are still using universities for what they did a hundred years ago: to become educated, not animal training to learn a trade or make a killing. It's a completely different mindset when money is no longer an object. It colors their whole life.

The average income of my friends who grew up in rich families is a fraction of my friends who grew up in poor families. They don't view money as bad, or good, but just as there, like air. They never have had to worry about it, so income never mattered. Money isn't normative for them -- it's not a sign of effort or moral good or worth.

They are the only people I've ever met who have a healthy attitude towards money. Unlike the rest of us, they use it, it doesn't use them.

 

[mookie1995]

Billboards all across the highways here in tb for a Dennis Hernandez who does PI law that stress “Harvard law graduate”

love to think of any fellow alums who drive past and blanche ;^]

 

[Kepler]

Biden to give an address tonight on public health.

It will be good to have a President again after almost 4 years.