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Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I'm just referring to the representation that those who define themselves as conservative don't have an interest in preserving basic traditional values. If you reframed it and said pro-big business Republicans, then I'd understand where you're coming from and agree. But social conservative Republicans view themselves as fighting a tough rearguard action to try to preserve what fragments remain of traditional basic values in this country in a setting where social mores are being rewritten by the minute.

There has been a long and often bitter battle inside conservatism about whether being conservative means suspending social attitudes in amber or trying to get beneath social attitudes to what their source is and why they make sense (and why they can stop making sense one day and need changes). By "long" I mean 300 years and counting, so we're not going it solve it today.

Let's take slavery as something that is distant enough in time that the battles over it can be more easily discussed. There was a self-described "conservative" defense of slavery: we should not uproot our traditions with the dangerous experiment of giving blacks rights; slavery has always been part of the price of civilization; what was good enough for the Founders is good enough for us. There was a self-described "conservative" attack on slavery: slavery is offensive to the American tradition that all men are created equal and it is time to change it; slavery is an intrusion of commerce on the moral realm and we should reassert the primacy of God and restore divine balance.

Because anybody can use a tradition as broad and deep as conservatism (or liberalism) to both attack or defend pretty much any proposition, the second type of conservative seeks for something below "the way it's always been." Political scholars like Russell Kirk have discerned underneath these kinds of apparent contradictions patterns that keep repeating in history. One type of "conservatism" reacts against a change in social practices as ipso facto unnatural, and sees the conservative tradition as trying to keep values from "sliding." The other type of "conservatism" looks at social practices not as ends in themselves but as means to deeper ends. When the means becomes offensive to the end, you modify the means. (Of course, this is also a rigged game, since the type of thinkers who make these distinctions also have their feet planted in the second camp. Reactionaries don't accept the distinction in the first place.)

Let me use gay marriage as the contemporary example. One type of conservative looks at gays and sees their grandfathers' revulsion at an "abomination." For them, gay marriage is in itself a wrong that can not be countenanced. The other type of conservative looks at marriage and says, "this is a good institution for all sorts of reasons -- let's not oppose its spread." Their attitudes towards gay people can change without threatening their underlying devotion to the healthy effect of stable relationships. Although they may themselves simply never be able to wrap their heads around gays as morally equal (after all, few abolitionists saw blacks as actually equal), they at least reach "better to marry than to burn."

"Social conservatism" can be defined either way, and I strongly suspect the reason a person is one or the other type just comes down to autobiographical details. Both are "valid" in the sense of being coherent worldviews that sustain themselves. But that very clash between them has given the more intellectually curious conservative thinkers grist for discussion for the last several centuries.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

The history of the present "King" is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts:
establishing an Arbitrary government,
For abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

He has abdicated Government here,
He has destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time already begun with circumstances of perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us,

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Some things never change... :(
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition


I wonder if that cartoon has it wrong. I think the original Tea Party wasn't made up of complete loonballs like Michelle Bachmann. The Tea Party didn't really give a dam about the social conservative talking points until the blowhards like Glen Beck saw the goodies between pair of legs they weren't trying to control and decided to make it their business.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I wonder if that cartoon has it wrong. I think the original Tea Party wasn't made up of complete loonballs like Michelle Bachmann. The Tea Party didn't really give a dam about the social conservative talking points until the blowhards like Glen Beck saw the goodies between pair of legs they weren't trying to control and decided to make it their business.

I think the cartoon was trying to bring that across. The nutbar with the tea bags (a woman at my work actually did that one day -- incredible) is thrilled, the mainstream GOP (love the suit) is shocked the Tea Party vehicle has driven into the tree (unlabeled, but presumably, Electoral Reality), so there's a distinction being made between the TP and the nutbar.

If you want to give the cartoonist more credit than he probably deserves, the story could be that the GOP rents the Tea Party vehicle as a temporary vehicle (any means to an end), the nutbar (who is presumably just as hyped up the whole time) takes it seriously and somehow causes the accident (as a backseat driver) -- a simple retelling of the Scorpion and the Frog.

In OTL, the tea party started as local and as far as anybody can tell sincere protests specifically against TARP and the bailout, before Obama was even elected -- classic agrarian populists who hate Banksters and City Slickers -- Kansas before Something Was The Matter.

Beck saw an opportunity for quick money and used them as useful idiots, astro-turfing national "Tea Party" gatherings. Because these were being orchestrated by the Echo Chamber they immediately took on every Knuck talking point: Obama's the anti-Christ, gun fondling, if I can't drag a gay behind my pickup my religious freedom is being infringed, the usual Wahmbulance. The GOP greedily slobbered up all the votes...

... but then a funny thing happened on the way to Restoring 'Murica. The extremist rhetoric was meth for actual extremists, who nominated crazy people and blew 5 or 6 sure Senate seats. The GOP was horrified that these rubes, who the Kochs wouldn't even let use the service entrance without fumigating, were actually following through on the rhetoric that had been drawn up in Club For Growth seminars strictly for its vote-provoking magic.

I'd say the cartoon does a pretty good job telling a complicated story.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I wonder if that cartoon has it wrong. I think the original Tea Party wasn't made up of complete loonballs like Michelle Bachmann. The Tea Party didn't really give a dam about the social conservative talking points until the blowhards like Glen Beck saw the goodies between pair of legs they weren't trying to control and decided to make it their business.

The birth of the Tea Party supposedly was this totally apolitical rant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZB4taSEoA

Sort of like in the movie Network: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more."

Then the opportunists came along.....
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

The birth of the Tea Party supposedly was this totally apolitical rant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZB4taSEoA

Sort of like in the movie Network: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more."

Then the opportunists came along.....

Santelli was one of the opportunists. He's a hedge fund manager ferchrissakes, he's one of the guys the Tea Party wanted to string up. The idea that he somehow was part of the movement is a plant -- the very kind of co-opting that destroyed the movement. That rant is a year too late to be considered the "birth" of the Tea Party. That's February 2009. TARP was signed in October 2008, and was planned in the epic all-nighter meeting between Paulson and Bernanke in September 2008. The market had been falling since summer 2007 and there had been angry protests about the Too Big to Fail banks from at least then.

I'm sure the actual origins are a continuous spectrum that goes back considerably farther than the Financial Crisis of 2007-08, but that's when it really got going. If I had to put a stake in the ground I would say Spring 2008. By Spring 2009 it had been headed off by the very Wall Street types that the original movement wanted in prison.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I wonder if that cartoon has it wrong. I think the original Tea Party wasn't made up of complete loonballs like Michelle Bachmann. The Tea Party didn't really give a dam about the social conservative talking points until the blowhards like Glen Beck saw the goodies between pair of legs they weren't trying to control and decided to make it their business.

A friend and I came up with a theory on this this last weekend. The roots of the tea party might be by those who felt jilted by supporting W...with the result of lashing out against the government. Call it the Nixon syndrome...whose members eventually lashed out against the media. Again, today the movement has been co opted by social conservatives (as movements often get co opted).
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

A friend and I came up with a theory on this this last weekend. The roots of the tea party might be by those who felt jilted by supporting W...with the result of lashing out against the government.

That's not a bad theory. Something very similar happened among black activists in the wake of the 60s murders and the curtailment of the War on Poverty in preference to Vietnam and corporate welfare/warfare. Black Nationalists reacted against the liberal white establishment's Dolchstoßlegende the same way you are describing Small Government conservatives reacting against the GOP rentier class. In each case, the "far" enemy (racist southern conservatives / tax and spend liberals) was replaced by a nearly hysterical reaction against the "close" enemy (white bleeding hearts with no stomach for real change / wealthy corporate cons with no stomach for real change).

Both groups began by being highly cohesive, both began from principled roots, both were easily led by fringe demagoguery, and both became increasingly paranoid as any moral advantage they had early in their movement was eroded first by mainstream disinterest and then the alienation of the wider public by their own violence.

Not a bad theory at all.

If it plays out that way, anti-government conservatives are going to wind up with roughly the same reputation and influence as Huey Newton.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I think the cartoon was trying to bring that across. The nutbar with the tea bags (a woman at my work actually did that one day -- incredible) is thrilled, the mainstream GOP (love the suit) is shocked the Tea Party vehicle has driven into the tree (unlabeled, but presumably, Electoral Reality), so there's a distinction being made between the TP and the nutbar.

If you want to give the cartoonist more credit than he probably deserves, the story could be that the GOP rents the Tea Party vehicle as a temporary vehicle (any means to an end), the nutbar (who is presumably just as hyped up the whole time) takes it seriously and somehow causes the accident (as a backseat driver) -- a simple retelling of the Scorpion and the Frog.

In OTL, the tea party started as local and as far as anybody can tell sincere protests specifically against TARP and the bailout, before Obama was even elected -- classic agrarian populists who hate Banksters and City Slickers -- Kansas before Something Was The Matter.

Beck saw an opportunity for quick money and used them as useful idiots, astro-turfing national "Tea Party" gatherings. Because these were being orchestrated by the Echo Chamber they immediately took on every Knuck talking point: Obama's the anti-Christ, gun fondling, if I can't drag a gay behind my pickup my religious freedom is being infringed, the usual Wahmbulance. The GOP greedily slobbered up all the votes...

... but then a funny thing happened on the way to Restoring 'Murica. The extremist rhetoric was meth for actual extremists, who nominated crazy people and blew 5 or 6 sure Senate seats. The GOP was horrified that these rubes, who the Kochs wouldn't even let use the service entrance without fumigating, were actually following through on the rhetoric that had been drawn up in Club For Growth seminars strictly for its vote-provoking magic.

I'd say the cartoon does a pretty good job telling a complicated story.

You know what, you're right. I didn't really look at it that hard. I thought the elephant had gone through the driver's side of the windshield. :D
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I think it was burd who used the term "libertarian socialist." When I first read that post, I thought "bingo! apt description."

It was my studies of Karl Marx in college that really helped shape my economic views, while Milton Friedman helped shape political views. Marx was one of the first to note that there is nothing special about government compared to any other institution: any institution tends to be dominated by the rich, powerful, and well-connected, and in any society, they use the static nature of bureaucratic structures to preserve the status quo, which thereby benefits them. [SUP]1[/SUP]

I like the concept of voluntary socialism. I don't trust any institution run by human beings to serve the public good. That's just human nature: the people who run an organization, any organization, left unchecked, will arrange the operation of said organization for their own convenience as long as they can get away with it. it could be the DMV, the cable company, the IRS, whatever you want: "serving the public" / "serving our customers" is not as important as "arranging for our time spent on the job to be at our convenience first."

Once you institutionalize something, you freeze it in place.


[SUP]1[/SUP] Eventually, technological change will make existing structures more and more obsolete, until eventually they will be forced to reorganize to fit whatever technology is then current. However, those structures will then become "frozen in time" as well....
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I think it was burd who used the term "libertarian socialist." When I first read that post, I thought "bingo! apt description."

It was my studies of Karl Marx in college that really helped shape my economic views, while Milton Friedman helped shape political views. Marx was one of the first to note that there is nothing special about government compared to any other institution: any institution tends to be dominated by the rich, powerful, and well-connected, and in any society, they use the static nature of bureaucratic structures to preserve the status quo, which thereby benefits them.

I like the concept of voluntary socialism. (snip)

Your preferences sound very much like anarcho-syndicalism to me.

Anarcho-syndicalists view the primary purpose of the state as being the defence of private property, and therefore of economic, social and political privilege, denying most of its denizens the ability to enjoy material independence and the social autonomy which springs from it. In contrast with other bodies of thought, particularly with Marxism–Leninism, anarcho-syndicalists deny that there can be any kind of workers' state, or a state which acts in the interests of workers, as opposed to those of the powerful, and that any state with the intention of empowering the workers will inevitably work to empower itself or the existing elite at the expense of the workers. Reflecting the anarchist philosophy from which it draws its primary inspiration, anarcho-syndicalism holds to the idea that power corrupts.

Proudhon and Bakunin are the most famous developers of this line of thought. The Dispossessed (one of the great sci fi novels) explores it from the inside. David Graeber has interesting things to say about it from a contemporary POV.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

Your preferences sound very much like [an idealized version of the United States from the late 1700s and early 1800s].

You’re right, now that you mention it. Many of my posts read like they were lifted almost verbatim from The Federalist Papers. I guess the writings of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay had a greater impact on my thinking than I acknowledged before. It was a crucial insight in their work that no concentration of power in any one government entity could ever be trusted, and it was their brilliant solution to disperse power among several competing entities that I find myself longing for today.

It’s a bit sad, that when you read through the list of grievances in The Declaration of Independence, how many of them apply to today’s federal government. I have no doubt that our Founders would be appalled by its reach and scope.

Two episodes from The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin really stand out in this context.
1.) Franklin describes how Philadelphia at that time did not have a fire department, and how a group of leading citizens got together, pooled their resources, and acquired fire-fighting equipment to be used to put out house fires quickly.
2.) He also describes how a group of leading citizens got together on their own and allowed their book collections to be gathered together to start one of the first lending libraries.

I’ve been blessed to be part of similar situations in my own life. During my junior and senior year in college, I lived in a food co-operative. There were three food co-operatives of about 20 students each right next to each other, and each of us operated pretty much autonomously, except when it came time to purchase food. Then, our three units had one membership in a collective of food co-operatives. As a member of the Food Co-op Co-op, as it were, we could buy all of our food wholesale, in bulk. Each week, one of us would drive to the train terminal to pick up food right off the boxcars that brought it to our area. We’d get 40-pound cheese wheels, have grains and flour delivered in bulk, etc.

There are several other similar anecdotal experiences I could relate about how people would band together on their own to take care of each other directly. I’ve lived in situations where individual liberty and collective responsibility were very complementary and quite effectively merged together in a healthy, holistic way.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

You’re right, now that you mention it. Many of my posts read like they were lifted almost verbatim from The Federalist Papers. I guess the writings of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay had a greater impact on my thinking than I acknowledged before. It was a crucial insight in their work that no concentration of power in any one government entity could ever be trusted, and it was their brilliant solution to disperse power among several competing entities that I find myself longing for today.

<img src=http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119260/3678106-103.jpg></img>

No... no they don't.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I think FF dreams of going back to an era when the US was in its salad days - a Founding Father was President, everyone had to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and England/France were the ones concerned with being the world's dueling diplomatic superpowers. It's not necessarily a bad dream, but it's an unrealistic one at best, and two giant steps backwards at worst.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I think FF dreams of going back to an era when the US was in its salad days .... It's not necessarily a bad dream, but it's an unrealistic one ...

it is true that I am not at all in favor of a totalitarianism that purports to be for my own good (as defined by people who consider themselves to be smarter than me). i truly do not understand why so many people here would forfeit liberty so quickly based on a dream that government compulsion is actually good for us in today's world, because (they claim) we are now incapable of recognizing our own best interests otherwise.

Many of us do not need to be forcibly compelled to help those less fortunate than ourselves, we gladly volunteer our time, talent, and treasure to do so.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

I think FF dreams of going back to an era when the US was in its salad days - a Founding Father was President, everyone had to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and England/France were the ones concerned with being the world's dueling diplomatic superpowers. It's not necessarily a bad dream, but it's an unrealistic one at best, and two giant steps backwards at worst.

The nostalgia for "a paradise that always is but never was." In "From Dawn to Decadence" Jacques Barzun called this one of the evergeen ideas that is continually rediscovered in every generation: it can be primitivism or religious fundamentalism or Constitutional originalism, but it all traces back to the psychological instinct that somewhere along the line it all went off the rails, and if we could just retrace our steps we'd return to a time when things were logically related and people were following the damn plan.

It's so enticing, but it's bunk. It's all been chaos since the opening bell, and the only way anybody's ever made anything even marginally better has been to analyze the problems and try to come up with new provisional solutions. Yesterday's gone.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

The nostalgia for "a paradise that always is but never was." In "From Dawn to Decadence" Jacques Barzun called this one of the evergeen ideas that is continually rediscovered in every generation: it can be primitivism or religious fundamentalism or Constitutional originalism, but it all traces back to the psychological instinct that somewhere along the line it all went off the rails, and if we could just retrace our steps we'd return to a time when things were logically related and people were following the damn plan.

It's so enticing, but it's bunk. It's all been chaos since the opening bell, and the only way anybody's ever made anything even marginally better has been to analyze the problems and try to come up with new provisional solutions. Yesterday's gone.
Do you have a Graham Chapman jacket and pipe handy?
 
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