Your 2012 Cycling Thread

[Bob Gray]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

Today is probably a national holiday in France.

Yah, their obsession with Armstrong was always rather unseemly.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

Wow, I would have though for sure someone would have beat me to talking about Lance giving up his fight against the USADA.

My take on Lance...Even before this announcement I thought he used PED's, but I also think his competitors did too. And at this point with all that has come out about athletes using in all sports, I really just don't care anymore. And the bottom line for me with Lance is that I think he has used the forum given to him to better many people's live through his promotion of cancer research. For me that is much more important than if he used PED's during his cycling career.

I want to thank the USADA for pointing out that I've been wasting my time watching cycling. No point in watching anymore- we'll find out in the future that everything we've seen in the last few years was fake, too- it's not humanly possible- they are SO convinced of that- they will go back in time to discredit people based on hearsay and not hard evidence.... Now I'll have more free time in June/July.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

The judge's comments in denying Armstrong's lawsuit, which lead to this.

"Federal courts should not interfere with an amateur sports organization's disciplinary procedures unless the organization shows wanton disregard for its rules," Sparks said. "To hold otherwise would be to turn federal judges into referees for a game in which they have no place, and about which they know little."

Sparks also cautioned that "the deficiency of USADA's charging document is of serious constitutional concern."

"Indeed, but for two facts, the court might be inclined to find USADA's charging letter was a violation of due process and to enjoin USADA from proceeding thereunder," he said. "First, it would likely be of no practical effect: USADA could easily issue a more detailed charging letter, at which point Armstrong would presumably once again file suit, and the parties would be back in this exact position some time later, only poorer for their legal fees. Second, and more important, USADA's counsel represented to the court that Armstrong will, in fact, receive detailed disclosures regarding USADA's claims against him at a time reasonably before arbitration."

Almost predicting there will be more legal battles in different venues, Sparks found "there are troubling aspects of this case, not least of which is USADA' s apparent single-minded determination to force Armstrong to arbitrate the charges against him, in direct conflict with UCI's equally evident desire not to proceed against him."

"Unfortunately, the appearance of conflict on the part of both organizations creates doubt the charges against Armstrong would receive fair consideration in either forum," Sparks said. "The issue is further complicated by USA Cycling's late-breaking show of support for UCI, and apparent opposition to USADA's proceeding — a wrinkle which does not change the court's legal analysis, but only confirms that these matters should be resolved internally, by the parties most affected, rather than by edict of this court."

Sparks had no desire to intervene in the fight between cycling and drug-testing authorities in a case that cites offenses going back 14 years.

"As mystifying as USADA's election to proceed at this date and in this manner may be, it is equally perplexing that these three national and international bodies are apparently unable to work together to accomplish their shared goal — the regulation and promotion of cycling," Sparks said. "However, if these bodies wish to damage the image of their sport through bitter infighting, they will have to do so without the involvement of the United States courts."

 

[Flashy Man]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

All I'd like is for the USADA to have present it's evidence to the public.

 

[sagard]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

I want to thank the USADA for pointing out that I've been wasting my time watching cycling. No point in watching anymore- we'll find out in the future that everything we've seen in the last few years was fake, too- it's not humanly possible- they are SO convinced of that- they will go back in time to discredit people based on hearsay and not hard evidence.... Now I'll have more free time in June/July.

There are TONS of drug cheats in MLB and NFL. The NFL just in 2012 will test blood for the first time. MLB still will not. If you want to watch something pure, you likely need to stick with lower level college athletics or youth sports.

 

[sagard]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

All I'd like is for the USADA to have present it's evidence to the public.

Lance does not. That is why he is in effect pleading "no contest."

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

There are TONS of drug cheats in MLB and NFL. The NFL just in 2012 will test blood for the first time. MLB still will not. If you want to watch something pure, you likely need to stick with lower level college athletics or youth sports.

There is stuff going on at those levels also. Maybe not as widespread?

Somehow in reading about the entities involved in this fiasco, boxing comes to mind.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Yah, their obsession with Armstrong was always rather unseemly.

We could always go marching through Paris a la 1940.

 

[sagard]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

There is stuff going on at those levels also. Maybe not as widespread?

There is WAY more incentive ($$$) to cheat, and way less testing. You really think it's not as wide spread?

Canseco and Floyd Landis are very similar to me. Nobody likes them or what they are saying, but neither has been proved a liar yet.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

My thoughts on His Yellowness, are fairly well documented here. Suffice it to say this is a good day! As to stripping him of the titles, I'm not sure that USADA can do that. I think then need to recommend a punishment to UCI who make the final call, which is akin to putting the fox in charge of the hen house, especially given the failed test at Suisse situation. However, I think what USADA has done is retroactively stripped LA of his racing license back to 1998 meaning he wasn't eligible to race 1999-2010. Though I suppose he'd keep his world championship, about 4 2nds in Liege-Bastogne-Liege, and his 4th at the 1998 Vuelta.

I have no idea if they'd actually promote anyone to the win, Zulle, Ullrich, Beloki et al have all been pinged for doping too. Maybe they'll just give the titles to Baossons, Moncoutie, and Simeoni. Cycling is dirty, I thought it *might* have been getting cleaner (especially given the improvement of French riders who have a reputation of being cleaner than the rest, the recent Cofidis thing aside.) then July happened. Someone pointed out that they now might have more free time in July...I will again point out the best time to watch cycing is in April where you can see the real hard men competing in the classics like Paris-Roubaix and the Ronde van Vlaanderland.

Oh yeah, Degenkolb is real impressive this week! But I hope that Viviani gets one.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

There is WAY more incentive ($$$) to cheat, and way less testing. You really think it's not as wide spread?

Canseco and Floyd Landis are very similar to me. Nobody likes them or what they are saying, but neither has been proved a liar yet.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying maybe it's not as widespread at lower levels, where the $$$ gradually become less and less of a factor.

 

[XYZ]

I'd love to see more information on this angle.

It's simply a case of lazy misreporting. The UCI is the final arbiter, though ESPN and plenty of others haven't deemed that worth making overly clear.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

You misunderstand me. I'm saying maybe it's not as widespread at lower levels, where the $$$ gradually become less and less of a factor.

I don't believe that it works that way in cycling. The Conti and Pro Conti teams actually are notorious for testing less and all the cyclist are trying to move up to the top level so their lack of serious testing gives even the less talented riders incentive to move up. A (in)famous cyclist once made a quip about dope turning "donkeys into thoroughbreds." And this often occurs at the lower levels. The top level teams are required to at least give lip service to anti-doping and riders are required to sign contracts that provide financial penalties. Additioanlly teams gain no points scored by riders returning from a doping suspension at the top level (Contador's Saxo-Tinkoff team for instance is in trouble despite having the best rider available as he can't score any points for them for 2 years. Without a new sponser it was possible that the team may get sent to the Pro Continental level.) The same cannot be said of the lower level teams. Ceramica-Panaria was a lower level team that suddenly took over a Giro a few years ago, unsurprisingly at least 2 of their riders just as suddenly got caught.

A notorious doper recently won the Tour of Turkey (I think) and was completely unrepentant in his speaking about doping. He got the ride for is small team and shockingly got caught against. Similarly on of cycling's poster children for doping Riccardo Ricco came up with a reputation as being enhanced, road for a smallish team, got caught and banned, came back, got caught, retired to avoid a ban, came back again and gave himself such a bad do-it-youself transfusion ended up in the hospital, retired again, then tried to come back (again!) befire finally being banned/forcibly retired. Doping in cycling exists at all levels.

The problem lies in how easy it is to dope and not get caught and the UCI.

EDIT: Say this this evening and thought it was kind of funny: True winners of the Tour

 

[Probert]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

There is WAY more incentive ($$$) to cheat, and way less testing. You really think it's not as wide spread?

Canseco and Floyd Landis are very similar to me. Nobody likes them or what they are saying, but neither has been proved a liar yet.

I'm pretty sure that Landis denied doping in the 2006 tour for the longest time including soliciting money from the public to pay for his defense. I also remember some type of shady business about computers being hacked though I can't remember if that was done specifically by a member of the Landis team.

Personally I would have liked to hear USADA's "evidence" and it might still come out at Bruyneel's hearing. Especially to find out if what was rumored that USADA gave immunity or offered reduced suspensions to current riders Zabriske, Leipheimer, Hincapie and Vandevelde to give evidence against a rider who is retired. Which I would equate to Major league Baseball giving Melky Cabrerra immunity to give them testimony that Roger Clemens used Ped's.

USADA also basically admitted that they cannot do testing. Lance was probably tested in excess of 100 times and never had a positive test except for the one test in 99 for Corticosteroids which he had a prescription for treatment of saddle stores. If he was doping for 11 years and they never caught him why do they exist.

As for the stripping it will be interesting to see what the TDF does currently as I have read it UCI, disputes USADA's authority in the matter, as its evidence does not arise from testing basically if they strip him they will give the crowns to admitted dopers or people tainted; Ullrich, Zulle, Beloki, Kloden and Basso. The tour didn't strip Ullrich or Riis of their titles when they admitted doping

 

[Titleist]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

I expect, that IF the UCI takes action which is highly debatable, then the Tour Titles will simply be vacated and there will be no winner declared for 1999-2006.

TO change gears, great stage in Spain today! Froome looked human, AC came back from his cramp, and Valverde showed both aggression and wheelsucking to win.

 

[sagard]

I expect, that IF the UCI takes action which is highly debatable, then the Tour Titles will simply be vacated and there will be no winner declared for 1999-2006.

TO change gears, great stage in Spain today! Froome looked human, AC came back from his cramp, and Valverde showed both aggression and wheelsucking to win.

The has been far and away the best GT this year. Four contenders, none perfect, but all very good. Still think Contador is the one to beat.

 

[Probert]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

The has been far and away the best GT this year. Four contenders, none perfect, but all very good. Still think Contador is the one to beat.

I'm still really ****ed that Cablevision took Universal Sports away from me so I can't watch the Giro and the Vuelta, despite my emails that I would much prefer to have Universal in place of one of the 3 channels I have that plays soccer and the 6 channels I have that are pretty much all college football.

The USA classic has been very exciting as well with Garmin constantly on the attack and a long breakaway stage win by Jen Voight a couple of day ago where he went in the first K. Watching the Tour of Utah and the classic Joe Dombrowski is going to be a Grand Tour winner some day.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

The ITT will be interesting on Tuesday. If Froome is still extraterrestrial I'm hoping that AC can stay within a minute. Purito has shown this year he can ride a decent TT and there is a hill in this one and who knows what Valverde will produce.

I enjoyed Utah but the Colorado race hasn't really impressed me. Yesterdays stage was good but the rest just left me cold. I also thought it was hilarious that Farrar is literally the ONLY sprinter in the race.

 

[sagard]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

Another fun stage. Gilbert finally wins and leads Purito across the line! After time bonus Purito picks up 15 seconds on everyone.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Your 2012 Cycling Thread

I think it was 9 plus bonus to Val and 12 plus bonus to AC and Froome. Too bad that AC mis-timed his attack that would have been good. I didn't think Froome looked good today and even Val commented on it that when he passed him (Froome) he looked tired.