Yale - The best team in the country?

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

North Dakota and Denver haven't beaten Yale this year either. Just saying..

True. It is also a fact that they haven't played Yale. Yale, according to KRACH, has the #33 Strength of Schedule. Perhaps if they played North Dakota and Denver that number would be significantly higher, and had they won both of those games, their reputation would also be much higher.

Win two games in April and then call yourself the best. It doesn't really matter in November/December.

FS23: You're right! I guess I should have said (as I did in my earlier post) that Yale has beaten teams that have beaten teams that have beaten UMD. No matter. My point was that...oh well, you know my point!

Using that logic, basically everybody has beaten everybody.

For Example...
Colorado College beat Air Force, who beat Yale, who beat Colorado College, who beat Denver, who beat North Dakota, who beat Duluth, who beat Bemidji State, who beat Nebraska-Omaha, who beat Minnesota, who beat Massachusetts, who beat Vermont, who beat Boston College, who beat Boston University, who beat Wisconsin, who beat Michigan State, who beat Ferris State, who beat Miami, who beat Notre Dame, who beat Michigan, who beat Alaska, who beat Union, who beat RPI, who beat UCONN, who beat Army, who beat AIC, who beat Mercyhurst, who beat Robert Morris, who beat Ohio State, who beat Quinnipiac, who beat SCSU, who beat Alaska-Anchorage, who beat Colorado College.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

I guess we will see how important SOS is as the season unfolds. I am curious, if you know, how much SOS has correlated with national championships and Frozen Four appearances the past few years? For example, if you take the rankings including SOS at the end of the regular season, before the playoffs, and then look at who goes to the FF and who wins, can you draw any conclusions about SOS?

Twenty consecutive national championship games have been contested between teams from Hockey East, the CCHA and WCHA. I suspect the team with the strongest SOS ranking each year doesn't necessarily win the championship, but I also suspect (based upon the statistic I just recited) the champion has typically played a fairly difficult schedule.

No one should dispute that Yale is a good team. One problem they may have, which RIT and Yale experienced last year, BSU a couple of years ago, and Cornell in seasons before that, is that you might sneak up on a better team, and even put together a win or two in the national tournament regardless of the conference you come from or the schedule that you played. However, to become champion you must win four pretty tough games, usually against a better opponent each game. That is tough to do if you haven't been put through the meatgrinders that are the WCHA, HE and even CCHA schedules.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

And when we rolled over CC a few days after CC whomped DU, I knew we could compete with anyone, but a small part of me also knows that our SOS is not as strong as others. So I am pretty surprised that every one of the computer models ranks Yale #1, taking SOS into account.

Well, not every one, but most of them. rpihockey.net also shows the E-ratings system, which has Yale ranked #2 behind UMD. There's also a recursive version of HEAL that has the Elis 8th, but that's a bit of a statistical outlier. But yes, by and large (and especially under the KRACH system), Yale is ranked #1.

I guess we will see how important SOS is as the season unfolds. I am curious, if you know, how much SOS has correlated with national championships and Frozen Four appearances the past few years? For example, if you take the rankings including SOS at the end of the regular season, before the playoffs, and then look at who goes to the FF and who wins, can you draw any conclusions about SOS?

It's tough to say, because it becomes a relative crapshoot in the NCAA Tournament. Case in point - RIT last year. Their SOS was abysmal, but it only takes a couple of upsets and there you are in the Frozen Four. Same with Bemidji State two years ago. The national champions in the end have tended to have strong SOS, but really what strong SOS means is that you have a lot more leeway for losing games. Yale doesn't have that. If they want to be the #1 seed in Bridgeport, they can't afford to lose more than 2 or 3 more times over the course of the season. If they want to be the #1 seed overall, they probably can't afford more than 1 or 2 more losses. Such is the nature of their schedule that they can't hope to absorb more than that.

Yale doesn't have a weak schedule, it's more like an average schedule - 33rd out of 58, a little under the median. But the comparison is with other teams around them on the national stage, and it is indeed accurate to say they have a weaker schedule than those teams.

 

[Stan The Man]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

I'd put my money on UNO.

How much you willing to part with?

 

[Dirty]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

Using that logic, basically everybody has beaten everybody.

For Example...
Colorado College beat Air Force, who beat Yale, who beat Colorado College, who beat Denver, who beat North Dakota, who beat Duluth, who beat Bemidji State, who beat Nebraska-Omaha, who beat Minnesota, who beat Massachusetts, who beat Vermont, who beat Boston College, who beat Boston University, who beat Wisconsin, who beat Michigan State, who beat Ferris State, who beat Miami, who beat Notre Dame, who beat Michigan, who beat Alaska, who beat Union, who beat RPI, who beat UCONN, who beat Army, who beat AIC, who beat Mercyhurst, who beat Robert Morris, who beat Ohio State, who beat Quinnipiac, who beat SCSU, who beat Alaska-Anchorage, who beat Colorado College.

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[bigblue_dl]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

How much you willing to part with?

Its a hypothetical regional matchup, hardly something you can actually bet on. Which is why I said "I'd" as in "I would" IF this were to happen.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

Yale doesn't have a weak schedule, it's more like an average schedule - 33rd out of 58, a little under the median. But the comparison is with other teams around them on the national stage, and it is indeed accurate to say they have a weaker schedule than those teams.

The problem here, is that Yale has already played the toughest part of its schedule. That 33 ranking is bound to inch closer and closer to the bottom. Of their 17 remaining games, at this point, only 9 would count towards their RPI.

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

I make the comment only based on my observations. Plenty of people, including yourself, seem very stirred up over this.

To put it bluntly, your observations suck.

you'd just be coming right back to the strength of schedule point that has already been made and refuted.

It's been refuted? Where? Let me know when that happens.

I'm sorry that Union isn't BU and/or doesn't play in Hockey East. It doesn't mean they can't potentially be considered a very solid program, as most objective observers are already saying.

Union, a very solid program? I'd ask if you were joking but this is in line with the rest of your posts. We're probably basing this on an ok record vs. a terrible schedule. Oh look, we're back where we started!!!! Yale and Union are just two freaking peas in a pod.

Are there any other teams in the ECAC we should pretend are awesome?!

No, I don't, because A) there are plenty of people outside of Idaho that felt the Broncos, when they were undefeated, were the best team in college football, and B) the comparison to Boise State is difficult to make because Boise wasn't popping up at the top of any objective ranking system at any time.

A) No moron in their right mind possibly thought Boise was a better team than Auburn or Oregon. Luckily Nevada proved that they were buffoons all along.
B) I'm sure there were some twits that came up with some math models that projected Boise on top. If we have Yale on top of some computer rankings, surely we can have Bosie on top of some computer ranking ahead of an undefeated SEC team and undefeated Pac 10 team.

Your forgot C) Boise actually played and BEAT someone (VTech) worth mentioning to give themselves a least something to argue. As did TCU for that matter.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

This year Yale will not play one team from the big three conferences (CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA). Without some type of comparison against these conferences we will not know how good Yale is until the NCAAs. Traditionally some teams from the ECAC have been able to win their first game in the NCAAs but have seldom won that second game. I will not say Yale is a great team until they reach the Frozen Four and show they can compete this year against teams like Duluth, BC, North Dakota, Denver, Miami, New Hampshire, etc.

Yale is not the best team in the country. They lost to Air Force.

If they are that good how did they lose to Air Force who has seven losses and lost to American International?

They played CC and Vermont.

 

[Stack]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

They played CC and Vermont.

Dang it. I missed that. Now I feel really stupid.

Ok Like on Saturday Night Live: NEVER MIND!

I deleted my post since I felt so dumb.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

Yale doesn't have a weak schedule, it's more like an average schedule - 33rd out of 58, a little under the median. But the comparison is with other teams around them on the national stage, and it is indeed accurate to say they have a weaker schedule than those teams.

HOLY CHRIST. Yale doesn't have a weak schedule? You are freaking delusion their headintheclouds. 33 (and falling) of 58 is just a smooch under 58 right... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA

F' Me....just keep drinking the Kool aid chief. And tell me again all those rankings that take into account SOS...especially the PWR, since thats the only one that really matters. Come on...go aheads, it's a long day and I need a good laugh.......

Median schedule ROFLMAO !!!!!

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

The problem here, is that Yale has already played the toughest part of its schedule. That 33 ranking is bound to inch closer and closer to the bottom. Of their 17 remaining games, at this point, only 9 would count towards their RPI.

You're talking about the future, though. Objectively speaking, if BC and Yale were both to go undefeated through the rest of the season, the Bulldogs would, at some point, be overtaken by the Eagles. Swap UND for BC and it's the same story. Swap any manner of teams - Denver, UNO, and Notre Dame especially - for BC or UND and it's pretty much the same. That's where the weakness of SOS will come into play down the road.

To put it bluntly, your observations suck.

I enjoyed the empirical data presented in this rebuttal.

It's been refuted? Where? Let me know when that happens.

Ah yes, the "see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil" approach.

Union, a very solid program? I'd ask if you were joking but this is in line with the rest of your posts. We're probably basing this on an ok record vs. a terrible schedule. Oh look, we're back where we started!!!! Yale and Union are just two freaking peas in a pod.

Are there any other teams in the ECAC we should pretend are awesome?!

Ah yes, the broken record fallacy. Look at KRACH, it's that exceedingly simple. Given that the top 25 in RPI are considered TUCs, let's look at the top 25 in KRACH and see where Yale stands there. I see wins over Union, Dartmouth, RPI, and Colorado College all by multiple goals. And yes, I'm sorry that they haven't played anyone in the Top 10, but as I've repeatedly pointed out (and this goes back to the refutation I alluded to earlier), there is more to a team than who they've played. Bemidji has the 2nd toughest schedule in the nation thus far, and you're not tooting their horn even though they swept UNO last week.

Your blindness to the concept of teams from a weaker league than the team you cheer for being solid is really quite amusing, but your veritable outrage is just another indication of the "butthurt" that I am seeing. Only one of us is getting bent out of shape over this. Do my observations still suck?

A) No moron in their right mind possibly thought Boise was a better team than Auburn or Oregon. Luckily Nevada proved that they were buffoons all along.
B) I'm sure there were some twits that came up with some math models that projected Boise on top. If we have Yale on top of some computer rankings, surely we can have Bosie on top of some computer ranking ahead of an undefeated SEC team and undefeated Pac 10 team.

A) Subjective, again. Starting to sense a pattern.

B) There were no computer models that had Boise on top, at least, none which I was aware of, and I was aware of quite a few. And you're somewhat mistaken - Yale's not on top of "some" computer rankings, they're on top of almost all of them.

Your forgot C) Boise actually played and BEAT someone (VTech) worth mentioning to give themselves a least something to argue. As did TCU for that matter.

Fine, then "your" give Yale credit for beating Colorado College by four goals. Whee, this is fun.

Come on, MAV, I expect better from you than I do from your friend jcarter. I'm not even breaking a sweat here, I was hoping this would be fun.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

HOLY CHRIST. Yale doesn't have a weak schedule? You are freaking delusion their headintheclouds. 33 (and falling) of 58 is just a smooch under 58 right... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA

Basic math, it appears, is not one of your strong points.

F' Me....just keep drinking the Kool aid chief. And tell me again all those rankings that take into account SOS...especially the PWR, since thats the only one that really matters. Come on...go aheads, it's a long day and I need a good laugh.......

PWR doesn't matter until the middle of March. This is December.

You asked to know which computer rankings Yale was at the top of. I obliged. They are at the top of nearly all of the ones that take SOS into account, first and foremost, KRACH. Ignore it all you want, it only serves to make you look even more silly.

Median schedule ROFLMAO !!!!!

Yes, because, you see, 33 is 4 away from 29 in a system with 58 elements. Thus, they have what is statistically close to a median schedule. You can laugh all you want, it doesn't change reality, although I am beginning to wonder what kind of warped reality system you live in.

I do know that I go to fans of teams with precisely 1 win to find out about who's worth being called the best in the nation. That much is so obvious.

Oh, wait, is this the part where I put in some graphics to make myself feel better? How about a video instead.

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[bigblue_dl]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

This is a really stupid argument. Both sides are arguing the exact same points every post. Can't we just go back to making fun of Yale and Yale's fans, all in good fun?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

This is a really stupid argument. Both sides are arguing the exact same points every post. Can't we just go back to making fun of Yale and Yale's fans, all in good fun?

I agree that it's a fairly stupid argument, if only because the whiny side keeps using the same one argument (ZOMG TEH STRENTH OF SKEDOOL!!11!oneoneone) and then ignoring the refutuation (ranking systems that take SOS into account regularly are still pegging them #1 right now) by making the same argument (ZOMG TEH STRENTH OF SKEDOOL!!11!oneoneone) or by whipping out ad hominems.

I think we should make fun of the Yale bandwagoners and the Yale whiners with equal vigor.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

You're talking about the future, though. Objectively speaking, if BC and Yale were both to go undefeated through the rest of the season, the Bulldogs would, at some point, be overtaken by the Eagles. Swap UND for BC and it's the same story. Swap any manner of teams - Denver, UNO, and Notre Dame especially - for BC or UND and it's pretty much the same. That's where the weakness of SOS will come into play down the road.

And this is where you are wrong. If Yale wins their remaining 17 games, as it stands now, they will finish with an RPI of .6199. If UND wins out, the highest they would reach is .6100. BC, the highest they can reach is .5928.

This is largely due to the fact that RPI does not count games where if you win games against absolutely horrible teams it would hurt you (This is the case for nearly half of Yale's remaining schedule). It's completely understandable and makes sense. However, this is why RPI doesn't do a very good job of determining SOS. If I play 1 game against a very good team, and win that game (margin doesn't matter), and then proceed to beat the School of the Blind 35 times, my RPI would be very good, perhaps the best in the country. If another team won 80% of their games against good teams, their RPI would most likely still be less than my RPI.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

And this is where you are wrong. If Yale wins their remaining 17 games, as it stands now, they will finish with an RPI of .6199. If UND wins out, the highest they would reach is .6100. BC, the highest they can reach is .5928.

This is largely due to the fact that RPI does not count games where if you win games against absolutely horrible teams it would hurt you (This is the case for nearly half of Yale's remaining schedule). It's completely understandable and makes sense. However, this is why RPI doesn't do a very good job of determining SOS. If I play 1 game against a very good team, and win that game (margin doesn't matter), and then proceed to beat the School of the Blind 35 times, my RPI would be very good, perhaps the best in the country. If another team won 80% of their games against good teams, their RPI would most likely still be less than my RPI.

Which is exactly why I don't use RPI as the end-all, be-all determinant of who is the best in the nation. And, ultimately, why the NCAA should use KRACH instead of RPI.

Not sure where you're getting "this is where you are wrong." I've brought up RPI as a statistic that has Yale as #1 at this point in time, but I also brought up the fact that its got a major, glaring weakness - which is why I used plenty of other ranking systems, especially KRACH.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

Which is exactly why I don't use RPI as the end-all, be-all determinant of who is the best in the nation. And, ultimately, why the NCAA should use KRACH instead of RPI.

Not sure where you're getting "this is where you are wrong." I've brought up RPI as a statistic that has Yale as #1 at this point in time, but I also brought up the fact that its got a major, glaring weakness - which is why I used plenty of other ranking systems, especially KRACH.

You were talking about how if BC and UND went undefeated they'd surpass Yale. The only statistic that I had really talked about in my post was RPI. That's where I got the "you are wrong" part because even if they won out, they wouldn't surpass Yale in the RPI.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

You were talking about how if BC and UND went undefeated they'd surpass Yale.

As the #1 team in the country by any objective measure, yes.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Yale - The best team in the country?

As the #1 team in the country by any objective measure, yes.

Fair enough. However, when you responded to my post talking about RPI, it certainly seemed as though you were talking about RPI.

Anyway, it's really a pointless debate. By mid-April we'll know who the best team in the country was for this season...but we have to have something to talk about until then.