World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

It's not at all "obvious" that Klinsmann isn't on board. All he said was, at this given moment in time, I'd rather see our best players starting on teams that compete in the Champions League than anywhere else. MLS is not yet at that level. Then Garber said that the goal of MLS is also to be that good some day in the future.

It seems to me that they are probably very much in alignment when you factor in the difference in time frames. Klinsmann has also spoken about getting the best domestic talent at younger ages and then developing it better.

Agreed. I don't see Klinsmann being wrong here. He is, however, a ****ing buffoon when he claims that MLS needs promotion/relegation to be a better league.

 

[Jimjamesak]

The league will get better when it attracts better talent, regardless of country of origin. That's all there is to it, and that's true across the board for every league on the planet.

The only high quality talent that MLS gets to have while they're in (or just out of) their prime is USMNT players. Granted, that's starting to change, and the talent that MLS is drawing is increasingly becoming more high-end, but it also still feels a bit like a retirement league for most of them. (Unless you want to say that Henry, Beckham, Kaka, Villa, Lampard, et al are all still in their prime as of when they came to MLS. Beckham and Villa at 32/33 is probably as close as we've had on that front)

I will dispute the fact that it's only UNMNT players, there is plenty of foreign talent in the league in their prime as well. MLS attracts a lot of players from across CONCACAF and other places. MLS is anything but a retirement league.

Of course if any of you people actually watched the league, you would know this.

 

[Jimjamesak]

It's not at all "obvious" that Klinsmann isn't on board. All he said was, at this given moment in time, I'd rather see our best players starting on teams that compete in the Champions League than anywhere else. MLS is not yet at that level. Then Garber said that the goal of MLS is also to be that good some day in the future.

It seems to me that they are probably very much in alignment when you factor in the difference in time frames. Klinsmann has also spoken about getting the best domestic talent at younger ages and then developing it better.

Klinsmann wants other people to spend their money for his sake. He wants MLS teams to spend money to develop these systems but also wants to take away things that generate the money to pay for said systems.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Agreed. I don't see Klinsmann being wrong here. He is, however, a ****ing buffoon when he claims that MLS needs promotion/relegation to be a better league.

especially as MLS already has the US version of "promotion/relegation," which we call "the playoffs."

 

[Jimjamesak]

especially as MLS already has the US version of "promotion/relegation," which we call "the playoffs."

His rationale for pro/rel was hilarious. Basically that if you play bad, you'll be in a lower league, which is what happens regardless if your team gets relegated or not.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

I will dispute the fact that it's only UNMNT players, there is plenty of foreign talent in the league in their prime as well. MLS attracts a lot of players from across CONCACAF and other places.

And what world beaters are we referring to here? Dwayne DeRosario? A mid-30s Rafa Marquez? Or, to expand the scope a bit, Obafemi Martins? Jermain Defoe, Tim Cahill and the handful of CONMEBOL DPs that could actually make their national team are probably the closest the league has had to a true high-caliber foreign player playing in the league in their prime. And, to be fair, those are very good examples. But there needs to be more than a half dozen of them in the league at any given time to start convincing anyone that it's a league attracting top talent.

The league is doing the best it can to better it's talent pool in an organic way. It's disingenuous to say that it's a top league in terms of talent, and it has 20/20 hindsight on the NASL to see what happens when they try to buy top-end talent without letting the league grow naturally first. The mix of talent that the league has trended towards in recent years* is IMO definitely working to improve the quality of the league, and in time each element of that mix is appearing to be more impressive. Homegrown players like Zardes and Yedlin are going to be what makes the league and our national team better, just as Dempsey and Donovan did in their time. I think the process is working, because we're seeing more of those types of players, and those players are starting to look increasingly impressive.

Eventually (if MLS grows organically as it has), the league will be at a point where those high-end Homegrown players will want to pull a Donovan and stick around, because the MLS talent pool will have improved by then and MLS will be a more legitimately good league. But it's not there. Not yet. Certainly not when our domestic clubs are still getting curb-stomped by Mexican clubs in the CONCACAF Champions League. And *****ing and moaning everytime someone says that playing for Stoke City offers you better competition to play against than playing for Columbus isn't going to change that.

Note that I'm dropping specific names here, to throw off your ****ish idea that people like me have this opinion because we're not paying attention to the league. Because that's really starting to get obnoxious.

* Which I'll define as: Importing a steady diet of after-their-prime stars (Ljundberg, Henry, Beckham, Kaka, et al) and USMNT heroes who need steady playing time against anybody more than they need practice against the world's best (Reyna, Dempsey, Bradley, etc.). Fill in rosters with academy products and leftovers from across the western hemisphere and Africa, but put an emphasis on the academy players (the Zardeses and Yedlins of the world) where possible.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Then how do you expect the league to get better if every decent player in this country runs off to Sunderland?

MLS isn't as bad as you people think. You guys would know that if you actually watched.

I do watch the league. It's not as good as you think either. It gets better gradually in much the same way as you're describing, but it shouldn't get better at the expense of holding back players who are capable of playing at a higher level, which the top leagues in Europe are whether you like it or not.

EODS said most of what I was going to say better than I was going to say it.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

I'm talking more about CONCACAF/South American players:
Garcia (Houston/Honduras)
Pappa (Seattle/Guatemala)
Torres (Chivas/Mexico)
Teixeira (Dallas/Uruguay)
Castillo (Dallas/Colombia)
Diaz (Dallas/Argentina)
Juninho (LA/Brazil)
Valeri (Portland/Argentina)
Plata (RSL/Ecuador)
Saborio (RSL/Costa Rica)

Plenty of talented, impactful players on that list. And that's just players I'm thinking of off the top of my head.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I do watch the league. It's not as good as you think either. It gets better gradually in much the same way as you're describing, but it shouldn't get better at the expense of holding back players who are capable of playing at a higher level, which the top leagues in Europe are whether you like it or not.

EODS said most of what I was going to say better than I was going to say it.

What I'm debating is whether playing at lower level EPL teams is really holding a player back. I don't believe that playing at a team like SKC or LA or Seattle is worse than being at Stoke or Burnley. It's like being at Oregon instead of Vanderbilt. Yeah, Oregon's not in the SEC but being in the SEC doesn't immediately make you better than those that arent.

If a player has an offer to go to a Champions League team yeah they should take it. Problem is, Americans aren't getting offers from Champions League teams. So, when the choices are playing at lower level EPL/Serie A/Bundesliga teams vs MLS, MLS is the better option more often than not.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

I'm talking more about CONCACAF/South American players:
Garcia (Houston/Honduras)
Pappa (Seattle/Guatemala)
Torres (Chivas/Mexico)
Teixeira (Dallas/Uruguay)
Castillo (Dallas/Colombia)
Diaz (Dallas/Argentina)
Juninho (LA/Brazil)
Valeri (Portland/Argentina)
Plata (RSL/Ecuador)
Saborio (RSL/Costa Rica)

Plenty of talented, impactful players on that list. And that's just players I'm thinking of off the top of my head.

And how many of those guys play regularly for good national teams? Roughly none of them, unless you count Costa Rica's miracle run. The top CONMEBOL players play in Europe, just like the top American players should be.

 

[Patman]

His rationale for pro/rel was hilarious. Basically that if you play bad, you'll be in a lower league, which is what happens regardless if your team gets relegated or not.

I can see it as a stronger incentive system to do things. Ultimate failure has a way of lighting a fire under one's *** and be responsive to changing tactics

 

[manurespreader]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

What I'm debating is whether playing at lower level EPL teams is really holding a player back. I don't believe that playing at a team like SKC or LA or Seattle is worse than being at Stoke or Burnley. It's like being at Oregon instead of Vanderbilt. Yeah, Oregon's not in the SEC but being in the SEC doesn't immediately make you better than those that arent.

If a player has an offer to go to a Champions League team yeah they should take it. Problem is, Americans aren't getting offers from Champions League teams. So, when the choices are playing at lower level EPL/Serie A/Bundesliga teams vs MLS, MLS is the better option more often than not.

If I'm the mnt coach, I would prefer my players play at stoke rather than at seattle. My personal opinion is that even if they don't play in the EPL they still get exposed to much better competition, whether it's in practice, workouts or whatever, and thus get better than they might here. So I disagree with you.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

If I'm the mnt coach, I would prefer my players play at stoke rather than at seattle. My personal opinion is that even if they don't play in the EPL they still get exposed to much better competition, whether it's in practice, workouts or whatever, and thus get better than they might here. So I disagree with you.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, American players need to play in the best league where they get regular minutes, being a bench player in EPL isn't going to help them. The biggest problem for amrrican soccer is perception, to me the best way to change that right now is play in the mls and start winning CONCACAF champions league games against Mexican teams. I also think a good player being on the starting 11 of just about any team in the top flight of Germany, Spain, Italy, or England where they are given a fair shake is a good idea, i just don't think most are getting a fair shake right now so they've come home,

 

[Jimjamesak]

If I'm the mnt coach, I would prefer my players play at stoke rather than at seattle. My personal opinion is that even if they don't play in the EPL they still get exposed to much better competition, whether it's in practice, workouts or whatever, and thus get better than they might here. So I disagree with you.

If "getting exposed to much better competition" was something that actually helped I'd agree. But if that was true, England would have some of the most dominant players and national team in the world. Japan, Korea, and Australia are fairly good examples of this, they have players playing all across Europe and yet their NT's and players are not tangibly better than Americans. Look at Mexico, their squad, with some exceptions, is almost all domestic based and they have been consistently a top 16 team in the world.

 

[Patman]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, American players need to play in the best league where they get regular minutes, being a bench player in EPL isn't going to help them. The biggest problem for amrrican soccer is perception, to me the best way to change that right now is play in the mls and start winning CONCACAF champions league games against Mexican teams. I also think a good player being on the starting 11 of just about any team in the top flight of Germany, Spain, Italy, or England where they are given a fair shake is a good idea, i just don't think most are getting a fair shake right now so they've come home,

IMO, this sets up a false dichotomy. Why is it USA vs. EPL bench? I can understand wanting to over sell the MLS on national pride, but seriously... being just a general sports fan I would think there would be plenty of clubs better than an MLS side. Getting stuck on a bad team for your future is a possibility... but if you're good enough why not take a shot.

The soccer savvy, if you want an exercise, please go through the top euro nations and establish cutoffs for where you wouldn't want to see usmnt players. High and low if you need to... don't need americans buried on chelsea or barcelona.

I appreciate the rah-rah factor... but let's not act like there isn't a lot of international wiggle room.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

On a different subject, in the CONCACAF Champions League, two teams from Mexico were eliminated in the group stage: Leon and Cruz Azul. The same Cruz Azul who won it last time out.

Portland got eliminated, mostly because Portland sucks. New York got eliminated because they didn't care. Montreal moved on despite being a Wooden Spoon contender. DC moved on. SKC has a game at Saprissa tomorrow. Other teams moving on: Club America, Pachuca, Alajuelense and Herdiano from Costa Rica (extending their WC run on the club level), and Olimpia from Honduras.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

If "getting exposed to much better competition" was something that actually helped I'd agree. But if that was true, England would have some of the most dominant players and national team in the world. Japan, Korea, and Australia are fairly good examples of this, they have players playing all across Europe and yet their NT's and players are not tangibly better than Americans. Look at Mexico, their squad, with some exceptions, is almost all domestic based and they have been consistently a top 16 team in the world.

Well to to quibble, but you know the US team is as good as Mexico.Though I do get your point.
The idea here is to be top 5 or 6. You know with enough talent to be competitive with Belgium the next time.
We have to find ways to develop these players better and for sure playing in MLS is not it. You just can't get better unless you play against better players. Yes playing is better than not playing, but still I disagree that mls provides the vehicle for our best players to get better.

If we did find a top talent, someone who could develop into a Suarez for instance, it would be a terrible mistake to play him in MLS if you ask me. The whole model of development in Europe is so different, until we copy it, or until we come up with a superior method, we are as good as we are going to be.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Young Boys beat an Italian team. Insert your best Catholic jokes here.

 

[Rhett]

Surprised we haven't gotten comments on Jermaine Jones to the Revs. Don't get me wrong as I like the MLS, but the only way the national team gets better is if our good players try to make a go out of it Europe. I'm not a Euro hipster, but I know we've got to test ourselves vs. the best of the best.

Considering age, he has only a very outside chance at 2016. If this slim chance involves a positional shift, then a switch to an MLS team amenable to using him in the new position actually probably was his best bet. Watch, he'll be a centerback for the Revs in 2015.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Now this is a tasty goal.

http://www.thescore.com/news/611749