Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You seem to be afflicted with a delusion that government is benign. It is neither benign nor malignant, while it is merely one of many institutions run by fallible human beings.

You have it exactly backwards. The right is under the delusion that government is malignant, it is merely one of many institutions run by fallible human beings. That's why the people who say "the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help'" can never hold an intelligent conversation with people who understand these issues are about finding the right balance. The former is cute, funny, bumper sticker bloviation. The latter is about the compromises that go into being a polity.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Corporations are far, far, more accountable to the people they serve than the government is. It's a no-brainer.

You're right about the "no brain" part. Representative government at least has a democratic structure. Corporations exist in a world where "people of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." The thing that keeps a game honest is not the players, but the referee. The reason dominant companies hate the government is not that it impedes a competitive market, but that it tries to ensure it.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You're right about the "no brain" part. Representative government at least has a democratic structure. Corporations exist in a world where "people of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." The thing that keeps a game honest is not the players, but the referee. The reason dominant companies hate the government is not that it impedes a competitive market, but that it tries to ensure it.

Dominant companies love government. Gov't is the one who can set up the rules to limit their competition. Gov't can set regulations that create barriers for new competitors to enter the market. If you look at Dodd-Frank, the only companies that can comply with the new rules are the mega-banks. The smaller firms can't pay for the compliance costs.

The biggest thing that companies fear is a true free-market. They fear someone coming along who can do things better, faster or cheaper.

 

[joecct]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You're right about the "no brain" part. Representative government at least has a democratic structure. Corporations exist in a world where "people of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." The thing that keeps a game honest is not the players, but the referee. The reason dominant companies hate the government is not that it impedes a competitive market, but that it tries to ensure it.

But the players at least need to have the compulsion to play by the rules. When everyone cheats, not even the best referee can make the game honest. IMO, somewhere down the line business ethics got tossed in favor of profits and huge W-2's for management.

You have it exactly backwards. The right is under the delusion that government is malignant, it is merely one of many institutions run by fallible human beings. That's why the people who say "the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help'" can never hold an intelligent conversation with people who understand these issues are about finding the right balance. The former is cute, funny, bumper sticker bloviation. The latter is about the compromises that go into being a polity.

I will argue that when the government intervenes, it creates a whole new empire with more rules and more regulations that have a cost.

As I said above, the referee works when the game itself is honest. When the game is rigged, the wrong people are profiting. If the referees are crooked along with the players, then forget about it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I will argue that when the government intervenes, it creates a whole new empire with more rules and more regulations that have a cost.

As I said above, the referee works when the game itself is honest. When the game is rigged, the wrong people are profiting. If the referees are crooked along with the players, then forget about it.

We're in total agreement on this, but I'd point out the problem with the latter scenario is not "government" or "regulation" but the mutual corruption of government and business by each other.

In our system, our only control is over the referees. The problem is we no longer punish them for dishonesty and reward them for honesty. We punish them if they cheat against our favorites and reward them if they cheat for our favorites.

In a democracy, the problem is ultimately always Us. Luckily, so is the solution. You just have to have enough people wake up. Between the Tea Party and Occupy a lot of people did wake up, and the right issues got discussed. If there is no substantive reform, the next time it will be louder and more forceful. As usual, right vs left is just a distraction -- the real struggle is a tiny number of very powerful people against an enormous number of nearly powerless people.

Hint: absolutely nobody on this Forum is one of the former category.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[Government] is neither benign nor malignant.

You have it exactly backwards.

OK, so government is neither malignant nor benign then.

By your "logic" one of those two must be right....

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

By your "logic" one of those two must be right....

Your statement that I quoted (and you removed) said:

You seem to be afflicted with a delusion that government is benign.

THAT, obviously, is what you have backwards.

Now, I don't for a minute think you were being dense or sloppy, I think you were being deliberately misleading. So off to Honesty Camp for you; maybe you'll unlearn some Drudge lessons while you're there.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

This should be a given for anyone, no matter what you fear from the evilscary Koch brothers. You have all the choice in which corporations to send your money to. Of the few that you don't have much choice such as utility providers, public school teachers, and road builders, take one guess what they all have in common?
Corporations are far, far, more accountable to the people they serve than the government is. It's a no-brainer.

Banks (private enterprise) did more to destroy my retirement savings then government ever did. And the banks that did it I don't even use. But, you get down with your bad self on your no-brainers. I along with millions of middle class folks did everything right and still got screwed.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We're in total agreement on this, but I'd point out the problem with the latter scenario is not "government" or "regulation" but the mutual corruption of government and business by each other.

In our system, our only control is over the referees. The problem is we no longer punish them for dishonesty and reward them for honesty. We punish them if they cheat against our favorites and reward them if they cheat for our favorites.

In a democracy, the problem is ultimately always Us. Luckily, so is the solution. You just have to have enough people wake up.

Now that is just about the best description there is...no matter what side we're on, it's turned in to winning, not doing whats right.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Banks (private enterprise) did more to destroy my retirement savings then government ever did. And the banks that did it I don't even use. But, you get down with your bad self on your no-brainers. I along with millions of middle class folks did everything right and still got screwed.

Why didn't you invest your money in a more stable government program instead? Everyone knows the ROI with government is extremely high. They would have saved everyone if we had just handed our money over to them at the start. Right?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Why didn't you invest your money in a more stable government program instead? Everyone knows the ROI with government is extremely high. They would have saved everyone if we had just handed our money over to them at the start. Right?

Excellent point!

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Banks (private enterprise) did more to destroy my retirement savings then government ever did. And the banks that did it I don't even use. But, you get down with your bad self on your no-brainers. I along with millions of middle class folks did everything right and still got screwed.

Did you buy into stocks and mutual funds because they're risk free? Because I'm pretty sure that's exactly how they're sold. You know, the lower the risk, the greater the return. The lower the beta, the less fluctuation in daily prices. And never mind looking at those EPS and P/E valuations. Those are meaningless, absolutely meaningless. Don't bother looking into market fundamentals when investing for even one second when investing your money.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Did you buy into stocks and mutual funds because they're risk free? Because I'm pretty sure that's exactly how they're sold. You know, the lower the risk, the greater the return. The lower the beta, the less fluctuation in daily prices. And never mind looking at those EPS and P/E valuations. Those are meaningless, absolutely meaningless. Don't bother looking into market fundamentals when investing for even one second when investing your money.

Curses for ruining his point with all these pesky facts!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Dominant companies love government. Gov't is the one who can set up the rules to limit their competition. Gov't can set regulations that create barriers for new competitors to enter the market. If you look at Dodd-Frank, the only companies that can comply with the new rules are the mega-banks. The smaller firms can't pay for the compliance costs

The biggest thing that companies fear is a true free-market. They fear someone coming along who can do things better, faster or cheaper.

When the govt blocks potential mergers, it is almost always dominant companies. An extremely valuable role government plays is to ensure that monopoies are minimized.

Why didn't you invest your money in a more stable government program instead? Everyone knows the ROI with government is extremely high. They would have saved everyone if we had just handed our money over to them at the start. Right?

Governments by their nature are in place to deliver public goods. Public goods are not private goods...and do not compete in the marketplace. In many cases, they cannot be evaluated based on hard tangible ROI. If public goods were strictly evaluated on ROI...the military would be shut down, many roads would not be repaired...fire departments, police departments? Well you know the drill.

I would disagree with Bob that this is good logic.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Governments by their nature are in place to deliver public goods. Public goods are not private goods...and do not compete in the marketplace. In many cases, they cannot be evaluated based on hard tangible ROI. If public goods were strictly evaluated on ROI...the military would be shut down, many roads would not be repaired...fire departments, police departments? Well you know the drill.

I would disagree with Bob that this is good logic.

I think you missed the point. The fact that ROI on public goods is exactly what I wanted to get across. Scooby was blaming private banks for losing all his money. What other options are out there? Public investments? Investing has some inherrent risk so when there is a down turn, losses happen. If you can't face those risks, either get a savings account with a very low interest rate but guarantee not to lose anything or hide cash away in your mattress. There are no real corresponding public options that would not have lost money in the current down turn. You're right, they do not compete in the marketplace so they should stay out of as many markets as possible to minimize impact on the public sector.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

LOL

I invested properly and according to all the rules and advice that everyone had. It didn't matter. It's a scam, just like everything else is. They lied to us then, and they're lying to us now.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

LOL

I invested properly and according to all the rules and advice that everyone had. It didn't matter. It's a scam, just like everything else is. They lied to us then, and they're lying to us now.

Stand up and flap your hands!

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

LOL

I invested properly and according to all the rules and advice that everyone had. It didn't matter. It's a scam, just like everything else is. They lied to us then, and they're lying to us now.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

LOL

I invested properly and according to all the rules and advice that everyone had. It didn't matter. It's a scam, just like everything else is. They lied to us then, and they're lying to us now.

And what have YOU done to account for that? My investments have recovered since the market correction. In fact, I'm up since then. Stop blaming everyone else for your situation in life and do something about it. Everything you post around here is that everyone around you is corrupt and causing you harm. Guess what - life is dangerous. Be a man. Save yourself.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Oh the world owes me a living
Deedle dardle doodle deedle dum
Oh the world owes me a living
Deedle dardle doodle deedle dum

If I worked hard all day I might
Sleep badder when in bed at night
I sleep all day so that's alright
Deedle dardle doodle deedle dum

There once was an old grasshopper
Who could only think of fun
He looked on work as something too
Unpleasant to be done

He loved to sit in the summer sun
And fiddle all day long

-Scooby

I think not. I'm going with Mark Twain on this one: "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first." 10,000 years ago, our ancestors were scratching out a living and cowering in caves. If we're lucky enough to have any descendants 10,000 years from now, they'll probably be doing the same. Just be glad you were fortunate enough to live in this brief period at the pinnacle of human civilization.