Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I think a far far far more important factor than any sort of messaging was the fact that Wisconsin, at the time of voting, had seen the effects of one year of reforms..... Doom and gloom sells a lot better when it's a prediction for what's to come, not a claim that has to be backed up with actual evidence.

Bingo! That's the best capsule summary I've read yet.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Some interesting data I had not seen before:

While the national media portrayed the recall battle as Walker vs unions, it turns out that the subplot was Walker for education: the reforms freed up additional funds for school districts without raising taxes:

Mr. Walker's budget victory has shown that structural government reform is the surest way to put more dollars into kids.

It's resonating because taxpayers see it working. In addition to limiting collective bargaining, the Walker reforms let schools competitively bid on health insurance, asked employees to contribute to health and pension plans, and introduced merit pay. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimates the pension provision alone will save schools $600 million over two years, while competitive health bidding is already saving $220 per student per year.

Places like the New Berlin school district, with its 4,700 students, have already reduced health-care costs by $2.3 million, retirement costs by $1.25 million, and other liabilities by $15 million. The district hired new staff, reduced class sizes, and added programs. The Shorewood district saved $537,000 simply by bidding out its health contract (previously run by a union outfit), and also reduced insurance premiums for its teachers.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...61051838.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_BelowLEFTSecond

 

[pirate]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

In Wisconsin this is 100% true. I work for a commercial window/door company, that's how building in the public sector works.

So, projects could be completed by firms that follow all state and federal laws on employment, safety, compensation, equal opportunity etc. and just built a private school down the street for $XX but since this project is a public school, they are paid 135% of $XX. And since that money comes out of the taxpayer's pocket, politicians have no problem agreeing to those types of deals.

And most of the blind sheep on here don't think that has anything to do with securing labor votes in elections.

Because, if they didn't pay non-union firms the union prices, the private firms would instantly ignore the several hundred laws on the books and pull out the Upton Sinclair Guide to Managing Employees...until the next job, when they'd do it all properly for a private company at a huge loss.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

So, projects could be completed by firms that follow all state and federal laws on employment, safety, compensation, equal opportunity etc. and just built a private school down the street for $XX but since this project is a public school, they are paid 135% of $XX. And since that money comes out of the taxpayer's pocket, politicians have no problem agreeing to those types of deals.

And most of the blind sheep on here don't think that has anything to do with securing labor votes in elections.

Because, if they didn't pay non-union firms the union prices, the private firms would instantly ignore the several hundred laws on the books and pull out the Upton Sinclair Guide to Managing Employees...until the next job, when they'd do it all properly for a private company at a huge loss.

There was a $234,000 threshold on projects that required union wages to be used, but the previous Gov (Diamond Jim Doyle), reduced it to $2,000.00, so basically if a town has wanted a new entrance, they'd have to pay union wages. Luckily, Walker repealed Doyle's changes and when back to what it was before Doyle.

I think it just crazy that if I, John Q citizen, and the City of Juneau build the same facility, the City is paying 35% higher wages than I am for the same building. Talk about just flushing taxpayer money down the tubes.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Some interesting data I had not seen before:

While the national media portrayed the recall battle as Walker vs unions, it turns out that the subplot was Walker for education: the reforms freed up additional funds for school districts without raising taxes:



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...61051838.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_BelowLEFTSecond

Wait, companies being allowed to make responsible choices? What a novel idea!

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Meet Gilbert Johnson, racist AFSCME goon (and president of a local), the poster boy for why Wisconsin voters retained Scott Walker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YSMZZPomq0&feature=player_embedded#!lker.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I'm with Scooby. If you have a taxpayer-backed defined benefit pension, why should you care whether it's fully funded or not?

If I'm in or near retirement, I agree with you; the odds of being forced to accept lower benefits are fairly low.

OTOH, if I still have 20-30 years to go in my career, I would be extremely concerned about the rules being changed and having to pay in a higher portion of my salary and/or receiving lower benefits in retirement as fiscal pressures mount with the unfunded mandates/obligations. In short, it's similar to the social security situation; reforms may happen, but they will very likely target those still working and ignore/spare those who are not.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We pause for this moment of levity in the midst of the serious discussions. You had to know this was coming.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VC_ult6-Tb4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We pause for this moment of levity in the midst of the serious discussions. You had to know this was coming.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VC_ult6-Tb4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Have we ever seen anything like this before? How many of these have there been? My favorite is evidently no longer available: "Hitler's Mexican Meltdown."

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Funny thing I saw on a friend's Facebook after the Belmont.

Scott Walker is already drafting legislation to strip Union Rags of his win.

(Please keep in mind I'm not taking a side. I'm just trying to lighten the mood.)

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

If I'm in or near retirement, I agree with you; the odds of being forced to accept lower benefits are fairly low.

OTOH, if I still have 20-30 years to go in my career, I would be extremely concerned about the rules being changed and having to pay in a higher portion of my salary and/or receiving lower benefits in retirement as fiscal pressures mount with the unfunded mandates/obligations. In short, it's similar to the social security situation; reforms may happen, but they will very likely target those still working and ignore/spare those who are not.

Agreed. Anyone that's part of a pension plan and has a long ways to go before retiring should be very concerned as to what will actually be there when they reach retirement age. It's very hard to change things on people already in the retirement system, but if/when there are major financial crunches as the national debt continues to balloon, Europe gets worse, etc., these plans will be juicy targets for cutting, regardless of what commitments were made in the past. In such a situation, I'd also pay close attention to how well funded the particular plan a particular plan is, as some entities have done a much better job of funding their pension commitments than others.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

So now the education reform battle goes to Idaho.

There are three referenda on the ballot in November to try to overturn similar reforms in that state.

[Idaho's reform package is ] Called "Students Come First," it was a package of legislation that limits collective bargaining, introduces merit pay, and takes advantage of new technology to help give more Idaho students the education they need for college.

Because Idaho is a Western state lacking both huge urban centers and large minority populations, it doesn't fit into the familiar education narrative of inner-city hopelessness. Nevertheless, failure is failure. Here's just one telling measure: A report released a week ago by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's Institute for a Competitive Workforce ranked Idaho as one of the four worst states in terms of the percentage of students who enroll and complete a four-year college degree.

....

Students Come First aims to change that by getting control over costs and elevating achievement. Thus the so-called Luna laws now restrict collective bargaining to salary and benefits, phase out tenure and force teacher contract negotiations out in the open. They also eliminate a practice that across America operates largely to protect bad teachers and keep good ones out of the classroom: the last-hired, first-fired system of seniority.

The other two prongs of Students Come First deal mostly with quality. New merit-pay provisions mean that teachers can earn up to $8,000 a year extra for serving in hard-to-fill positions, taking on leadership positions, or helping their schools boost student achievement. The technology part has to do with ensuring that students and teachers in any part of Idaho have access to the best instruction available

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...7488840259885990.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop


If I were a teacher, I'd be really angry with my union for opposing merit pay. Why not give us the opportunity to earn more in exchange for working smarter? how is that bad for teachers? (hint: so that the 5% of bad apples are not finally sanctioned, the other 95% have to do without)

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

So now the education reform battle goes to Idaho.

There are three referenda on the ballot in November to try to overturn similar reforms in that state.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...7488840259885990.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop


If I were a teacher, I'd be really angry with my union for opposing merit pay. Why not give us the opportunity to earn more in exchange for working smarter? how is that bad for teachers? (hint: so that the 5% of bad apples are not finally sanctioned, the other 95% have to do without)

Parts actually sound good if it truly puts resources into technology. Its not important to protect unions...its important to protect education.

Although I will say that there's no way to know that all the changes being mandated in terms of teacher micro management is the best for the kids. And if folks believe big government running the show is bad...big government legislature is likely worse as its also less knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[joecct]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

So now the education reform battle goes to Idaho.

There are three referenda on the ballot in November to try to overturn similar reforms in that state.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...7488840259885990.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop


If I were a teacher, I'd be really angry with my union for opposing merit pay. Why not give us the opportunity to earn more in exchange for working smarter? how is that bad for teachers? (hint: so that the 5% of bad apples are not finally sanctioned, the other 95% have to do without)

What worries me is another attempt at "but it's for the children!". When somebody says that, I automatically check if my wallet is still there.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

What worries me is another attempt at "but it's for the children!". When somebody says that, I automatically check if my wallet is still there.

Make sure you also check whether your rights are still there.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We probably don't realize how lucky we are not to have this problem on a Federal level. Only now at the state level are the first few steps being taken for long-overdue "rebalancing" between the total level of public sector benefits and the resources available from which to pay them.

In Connecticut, the state employees' unions strenuously objected to a clause that said people needed actually to take regularly medicine that was prescribed for 4 common chronic conditions (cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes, COPD). Imagine that...you are supposed to take medicine prescribed to you by your own physician as part of your healthcare benefit, and you oppose that!

There is no comparable problem at the federal level, and again for that we can thank Pres. Reagan, back in 1981 (more than 30 years ahead of his time, eh?). Of course, in his case, the union gave him every pretext he needed and he was swift and ruthless in execution. He broke the air traffic controllers' strike pretty thoroughly and totally won over an impressive majority of public opinion. He was concrete and clear: "public safety can never be held hostage."

Of course you can imagine why nearly everyone supported him...few people believed that the people responsible for safe passage of the nation's airplanes had the right to refuse to show up for work in a dispute over pay or benefits.

Imagine how horrendous the federal deficits would be if that strike had not been broken?

 

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

In Connecticut, the state employees' unions strenuously objected to a clause that said people needed actually to take regularly medicine that was prescribed for 4 common chronic conditions (cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes, COPD). Imagine that...you are supposed to take medicine prescribed to you by your own physician as part of your healthcare benefit, and you oppose that!

And yet, if this were about being forced to, say, wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle or wearing seatbelts in cars, you'd be making a speech about how your personal liberty is being infringed.

Or, to borrow a phrase from your favorite justice, are you saying you could be forced to eat broccolii?

 

[joecct]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

And yet, if this were about being forced to, say, wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle or wearing seatbelts in cars, you'd be making a speech about how your personal liberty is being infringed.

Or, to borrow a phrase from your favorite justice, are you saying you could be forced to eat broccolii?

At the State level is much different than at the Federal level. The State can mandate that I have auto insurance as a condition of owning/operating a motor vehicle. The Federal government (at this time) cannot.

States set the speed limits on their interstate highways. I always thought it was a stretch when Nixon made us all drive 55 as a conservation measure. I'm glad that got reversed by the Congre$$.

 

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

At the State level is much different than at the Federal level. The State can mandate that I have auto insurance as a condition of owning/operating a motor vehicle. The Federal government (at this time) cannot.

That's not the point. FreshFish is apparently all for government intervention and mandated behavior as long as it's against things he hates. But the second it forces him to do something, "OMG ***BBQ!!!!!!"

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

That's not the point. FreshFish is apparently all for government intervention and mandated behavior as long as it's against things he hates. But the second it forces him to do something, "OMG ***BBQ!!!!!!"

Just like most people. A very liberal friend facebook posted a scare-mongering piece the other day about reproductive health issues asking, "Do you want the government making your health care decisions?" I thought it was pretty hilarious, considering how vociferously she argued for Obamacare (and how strongly she would actually prefer single-payer). So in fact, the answer is, "Yes, she does want the government making health care decisions - so as long as the government is making decisions that she agrees with."