Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[WeWantMore]

With 100 percent of precincts in, Democrat John Lehman has won the District 21 race by 779 votes, which would give the Dems a 17-16 majority in the state Senate if it holds up to a recount.

Getcha popcorn ready.

Lol. If the popcorn is bland flavored, sure.

The state senate hasn't been in session for months. It's doubtful they come back before November. Then, in November, the GOP has 2 golden pick up opportunities. The general consensus was Dems needed to win more than one seat last night to have a chance of holding it post-November. Didn't happen.

Maybe they call a special session and grandstand a bit this summer, but the Assembly, which also gaveled out months ago, is under no compulsion to pay attention to them.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Cool. A probable balanced budget for two more years.

That's about the extent of what I think I'm getting out of this. I don't think I make enough money to expect any tax relief from it, though. On the plus side, my company's president is a fairly involved Republican, so maybe my employer can hope for a handout.

On the other side of the token, the only thing I might have gained from Barrett is... I'm still trying to think of a bright side to Barrett. Uh... he seems like a good guy? He did take that beating when he stepped in to help that domestic disturbance outside the State Fair that one time. I'll go with that.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

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"Can I slap you?"

 

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

And you know nothing about me, you are but one person, the fact that you think you are not overpaid does not change the facts that in general the public sector is doing significantly better than the private sector.

But not once you take into account educational differences...if I remember right, the only place where people of similar education are better paid in the public sector are those in the most menial positions (janitors, garbage men, etc.). Otherwise, the data is skewed because the public sector employs more highly educated people as a percentage of its workforce - lots of attorneys, doctors, professors, people with master's degrees, etc. None of which are paid as high as their private sector equivalent.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Quade survives, Cohagen is defeated, people can start to breathe the free air again.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Not that you would know whereof you speak, but I was not overpaid and certainly not paid better than the private sector.

It seems like you and Shirtless were talking past each other, emphasizing different things. It does seem to be the case, if you look only at salary, that professionals in the public sector have lower salaries than comparable positions in the private sector. If you look at total compensation, including benefits, the difference in many cases flips. Most public-sector employees have no idea how to place an appropriate market value on their pensions or retiree health benefits, and for some reason (ha!) their leaders are reluctant to make that clear.

Additionally, if you move from professionals to more general blue collar / white collar positions, the difference becomes more striking. For example, for a 62-year old female retiring with an annual pension of $42,000, it takes $750,000 at her retirement to fund that pension. If she had worked for 30 years, that is the equivalent to about $12,000 in extra annual pay required as an annual deposit to build up to that amount.

Add in retiree health benefits, you now need well over $1 million at her retirement to fund her future retirement benefits, or about $16,000 in extra annual pay required as an annual deposit to fund that amount.

and yes, I do know quite a bit about this arcane subject, so please spare me the personal attacks. Math is math.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Lavish lifestyles, huh? Yeah, those public sector employees driving camrys and honda civics are sure livin' large.

Comfortable? Sure. Lavish? Not a chance.

They only do that because they're so smug about "doing good for the environment". They say with their eyes closed that they drive it.

 

[Patman]

But not once you take into account educational differences...if I remember right, the only place where people of similar education are better paid in the public sector are those in the most menial positions (janitors, garbage men, etc.). Otherwise, the data is skewed because the public sector employs more highly educated people as a percentage of its workforce - lots of attorneys, doctors, professors, people with master's degrees, etc. None of which are paid as high as their private sector equivalent.

Tell you what, when my union starts fighting for scientists, specifically. I will sprout wings and fly.

I'll give you a big hint, there aren't enough scientists to make them give a ****. Unions respond to power and economics, who knew? Their bread and butter is made on the rank and file who have been convinced they can take more than would otherwise normally receive and it's theirs by divine right. It's not accident that most union members are those in the mediocre middle.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

It really comes down to some pretty simple logic. If you have the choice of (A) paying an extra $1000 per year, every year, in real estate taxes so that your next door neighbor who happens to be a teacher can get her annual pay raises and never have to pay for healthcare insurance and retire early with a huge pension; or (B) you can have your real estate taxes drop and your next door neighbor teacher gets a little bit smaller pay raise and has to pay a few more bucks a month for healthcare, but STILL gets way better pay and benefits than you, then what's your choice gonna be? Unless you're a Public Union worker or family member or a complete idiot, you're gonna go with choice (B)

I hate unions, but this does not mean they have "lavish lifestyles" as you wrote in your previous post. I think that was way too far over the top.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I hate unions, but this does not mean they have "lavish lifestyles" as you wrote in your previous post. I think that was way too far over the top.

Hate is a strong word.

The days of the Union are passing away, so you should be able to breathe easier.

How do you feel about corporations dictating our public policy? Unchecked.

That is the new age we are entering, make no mistake.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

But not once you take into account educational differences...if I remember right, the only place where people of similar education are better paid in the public sector are those in the most menial positions (janitors, garbage men, etc.). Otherwise, the data is skewed because the public sector employs more highly educated people as a percentage of its workforce - lots of attorneys, doctors, professors, people with master's degrees, etc. None of which are paid as high as their private sector equivalent.

I think it also depends upon your location. In Madison or Milwaukee the public sector jobs may not be seen as great financial opportunities. However, I suspect in much of the rest of the state the public sector jobs, benefits and pensions are still considered coveted positions.

On a side note, I think a tip of the hat has to be given to the people of the State of Wisconsin for the big financial swindle they pulled over on the rest of the country. They had to put up with a few months of the campaign bs, and running a special election cost the state some money, but I bet it pales in comparison to the dollars that poured into the state from out east in an effort to sway the election.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Just a note. Not all public employee retirees get health care coverage. Here in Arizona, at least state workers, and I believe other levels as well, don't get anything toward health coverage once they are retired.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Hate is a strong word.

The days of the Union are passing away, so you should be able to breathe easier.

How do you feel about corporations dictating our public policy? Unchecked.

That is the new age we are entering, make no mistake.

Agreed.

Teaching is an area to be careful. It makes sense to pay someone working on a retail sales floor a low wage...and believe me they are squeezed compared to what they were paid 20 years ago.

But in the teaching profession...there is a love of the job that attracts some people. The risk is that we don't pay them, somebody still volunteers (not who is best) and quality suffers. The private sector is very good at judging and rewarding appropriately at mid and high levels of management. But it doesn't understand a low level superstar without trying to promote them to something else. And I have no love for unions by and large. But as a management consultant, I can say the private sector would be a bad judge for the teaching profession in particular.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

How do you feel about corporations dictating our public policy? Unchecked.

That is the new age we are entering, make no mistake.

Reminds me of the original Rollerball, with John Houseman and James Caan. There were no countries any more, only corporations running everything.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Hate is a strong word.

The days of the Union are passing away, so you should be able to breathe easier.

How do you feel about corporations dictating our public policy? Unchecked.

That is the new age we are entering, make no mistake.

It really is the age we're in. Unions have been in steady decline over the last 30 years along with the middle class. GW Bush incompetence in running the economy was the only reason Obama got elected. Mitt will be the icing on the GOP's cake and the conversion to an oligarchy will be complete.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Agreed.

Teaching is an area to be careful. It makes sense to pay someone working on a retail sales floor a low wage...and believe me they are squeezed compared to what they were paid 20 years ago.

But in the teaching profession...there is a love of the job that attracts some people. The risk is that we don't pay them, somebody still volunteers (not who is best) and quality suffers. The private sector is very good at judging and rewarding appropriately at mid and high levels of management. But it doesn't understand a low level superstar without trying to promote them to something else. And I have no love for unions by and large. But as a management consultant, I can say the private sector would be a bad judge for the teaching profession in particular.

In all honesty, I don't think the salaries are what the issue is...its the benefits that allow them to keep all of their wages after taxes and get 90% of their final salary upon retirement. Defined benefit plans just don't work anymore when people work 30 years and get a large portion of their salary for an additional 30 years. Having good health care in the near term for teachers because they need to be in the classroom, but the biggest thing Wisconsin did in that department was break the requirement that the schools use the Union's own health care provider and can now shop around for the best deal for the products they want...that's a huge deal.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Hate is a strong word.

The days of the Union are passing away, so you should be able to breathe easier.

How do you feel about corporations dictating our public policy? Unchecked.

That is the new age we are entering, make no mistake.

I feel the same way I always have. And there is nothing new about it. Just different players.

Let's review.

We have the robber barons who control the political landscape. Guys like Morgan, Rockefeller, et al, use their wealth to basically purchase public policy.

Or maybe the politicians themselves. Tammany Hall, using muscle, literally, along with political patronage to get themselves elected. Use elected position to achieve kickbacks, used in turn to pay the muscle.

Or maybe the criminal element. Bootleggers, gangsters and the mob using wealth achieved from illegal activities to fund political advantage.

The aforementioned unions, using dues to purchase favorable legislation.

Now corporations. Big deal.

Politicians will do whatever the person paying them says they should do. That's the way it's always been. That's the way it will always be. You don't like it, figure out a way to pay more so you too can be the highest bidder.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Politicians will do whatever the person paying them says they should do. That's the way it's always been. That's the way it will always be. You don't like it, figure out a way to pay more so you too can be the highest bidder.

That's one of the things that made the TEA Party movement so refreshing. Whether you agree with any of their specific policies or not, it is a true grass-roots' revolution of ordinary people organizing together and demanding to be heard.

The Internet (at least until we concede control to government censors) allows for so many possibilities in this regard....like microcap lending to third-world entrepreneurs (helping someone buy a cow to produce milk and cheese for resale, for example); ordinary people can now align their donations with their ideologies by teaming with like-minded people across the country or around the globe. The biggest problem will become verification: can we trust the information we are getting?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

because that 900k is inflated, its documented that 15-20% of those listed had some kind of error...only 670k people voted in the democratic primary, 80% of the signature total is 720k, 1.1 mil today...interesting to think about I guess.

Or it's easier to sign something when you're walking into Old Navy than it is to bother to show up for the polls.

This seems like the classic case of an idea that was popular in the abstract but when it actually came down to it people didn't mobilize behind it. Listening to POTUS all week there were a ton of people who said "I think Walker's a fink but as long as he didn't break any laws a recall is a bad precedent." That actually shows a degree of thoughtfulness by voters you don't usually expect.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I'm sticking with Walker (-6.5).

Walker 53.2 (-6.9)
Barrett 46.3

Anyone have an aspirin? I think I just strained my shoulder patting myself on the back.