WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

So from an outsider's view, seems like eaves will get another year? On paper, would you expect the team to be better or worse next year?

I doubt BA was going to ax Eaves, even if they finished 7th. The only hope is the attendance issue, but it looks like every major UW program has a no show problem. Now he has 4th place on the resume, only a scant 4 pts out of 1st. BA will think that is more than good enough. I hope they don't extend him, which is the normal thing to do with the UW coaches.

 

[WiscDC]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I doubt BA was going to ax Eaves, even if they finished 7th. The only hope is the attendance issue, but it looks like every major UW program has a no show problem. Now he has 4th place on the resume, only a scant 4 pts out of 1st. BA will think that is more than good enough. I hope they don't extend him, which is the normal thing to do with the UW coaches.

As far as no-shows are concerned, I wish the article dealt with student tickets separately. Holidays make a huge difference, as do weekday games, especially if there happens to be many classes taking midterms at the same time. During last year's basketball game against the Gophers, people struggled to give their tickets away. Quite honestly, I feel like the attendance issue is independent of the head coach and his system. Even just last year, there were plenty of hockey games when the Kohl Center was unbelievably loud. Several years ago? Still the Eaves era, but I can only imagine how nutty it must have been night in and night out.

 

[SatNightFever]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I don't see why that's a problem. If you're going to play a game, it might as well count.

On paper, yes - it should count - and I am OK with that to a certain extent. But it is almost as if it counts TOO much. I don't see where a team that is "playing it's best" at the end of the season is rewarded in this format. In terms of fairness, this is a better system than the basketball committee uses - but the fact that a loss in late October can be pointed to as the reason why we may not make the NCAA tourney is a little discouraging.

Basketball teams are encouraged to play some tougher NC teams - and it is acknowledged that a few losses there will not (For the most part) keep them out of the tourney. I know with a 68 vs 16 team field, it is a little apples/oranges.

In hockey, I would assume it would help your RPI to play better NC opponents, but on some level it would also benefit you to play weak NC teams from say the CCHA or HE and then control the comparison against their conference rivals - of course provided you win.

If the Badgers win a few more games early in the year, are they in the predicament right now? No. Is it their fault? Yes. But ultimately I believe RIGHT NOW they are one of the best 16 teams in the country, and deserve to be in the field - and the PRW does not bear that out.

But they still have some time to rectify that situation.

On Wisconsin

 

[Biddco]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Anyone know if there's TV coverage this weekend?

...

For one, UMD's goaltenders can't be trusted. Aaron Crandall is awful, and it isn't as if McNeely has been lights out either. Crandall does have two shutouts in his past two starts, but one came against a terrible Huntsville team, and the other against a UNO team that has basically given up. Even with the two shutouts, Crandall's Sv % is under .900.

Joe Howe for CC may be inconsistent, but he's better than what UMD has to offer at this point, and I'll take my chances against Crandall and McNeely.

You've got your wish! Hope you can stop the power play!

 

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Despite fan controversy here and elsewhere, I'm not sure there was or is much doubt Mike Eaves will be at the helm next year unless he chose to leave for a different job. As far as next year's team I'd think the Badgers will be expected to be a top ten, maybe even top five team. That is barring departures, of course. There are a couple of guys who could leave if they chose to, I think.

the problem with calling UW a top 10 or top 5 team for 2013-2014 is this: it was the exact same thing said about this year's edition. "UW will be an older team" etc. "don't panic, no firing of the coach, being older will be the elixir"

it's possible Zulinick and Besse can help UW turn it on, who knows. Obviously I think this year's team was quite unimpressive, but if Zulinick and Besse can add 40-50 points between them next season suddenly the team appears much healthier

An interesting side note to this season is checking out individual stats. Zengerle, Barnes, LaBate, Dahl, Woods, R. Little, Simonelli, Meuer, Navin, Faust, Paape are all playes whose point production went down or remained the same as last year. Not the whole story but if 1/2 of the preceding had improved their production by just 2-5 points each (or someone had a breakout season like we used to see years ago, sophs to juniors exploding from 10 points to 35 etc) even this curmudgeon would have not much to complain about (except for style of play), they'd likely be Top 3 WCHA if that kind of improvement had occurred for 6 of these guys

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

On paper, yes - it should count - and I am OK with that to a certain extent. But it is almost as if it counts TOO much. I don't see where a team that is "playing it's best" at the end of the season is rewarded in this format. In terms of fairness, this is a better system than the basketball committee uses - but the fact that a loss in late October can be pointed to as the reason why we may not make the NCAA tourney is a little discouraging.

Basketball teams are encouraged to play some tougher NC teams - and it is acknowledged that a few losses there will not (For the most part) keep them out of the tourney. I know with a 68 vs 16 team field, it is a little apples/oranges.

In hockey, I would assume it would help your RPI to play better NC opponents, but on some level it would also benefit you to play weak NC teams from say the CCHA or HE and then control the comparison against their conference rivals - of course provided you win.

If the Badgers win a few more games early in the year, are they in the predicament right now? No. Is it their fault? Yes. But ultimately I believe RIGHT NOW they are one of the best 16 teams in the country, and deserve to be in the field - and the PRW does not bear that out.

But they still have some time to rectify that situation.

On Wisconsin

I get what you are saying and in some ways I do agree. Of course a loss in Oct. is no more responsible than the losses two or three weeks ago. With the PWR, every game essentially counts the same no matter when or under what circumstances it's played, which is arguably a fault with the PWR. For example let's say Sue is missing Knight, Kristo, Scmaltz, and little guy for 8 games during the season, let's say... I don't know... they were helping a little old lady across the street and were injured by a rampaging buffalo... During those games they go 2-6 and now are on the outside. There's no doubt they are one of the 16 best teams. A selection committee could put them in, the PWR can't. Unfair? Probably. With the PWR that's the haps jack.
On the other hand, it's completely objective, everyone knows exactly what they need to do to get in, and it's highly likely the 10 best teams at least are in each year so there's plenty of good arguments as to why it's used. I just don't personally prefer it in it's current form. Regardless, just best not to be on the bubble.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

I don't see where a team that is "playing it's best" at the end of the season is rewarded in this format.

And I don't see why they need to be.

In terms of fairness, this is a better system than the basketball committee uses - but the fact that a loss in late October can be pointed to as the reason why we may not make the NCAA tourney is a little discouraging.

Is it any less discouraging than the fact that losing instead of tying on Friday night is currently the difference between us maybe getting an at large bid and staying home? I guess I don't follow this kind of logic.

 

[WiscDC]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

On paper, yes - it should count - and I am OK with that to a certain extent. But it is almost as if it counts TOO much. I don't see where a team that is "playing it's best" at the end of the season is rewarded in this format. In terms of fairness, this is a better system than the basketball committee uses - but the fact that a loss in late October can be pointed to as the reason why we may not make the NCAA tourney is a little discouraging.

If the Badgers win a few more games early in the year, are they in the predicament right now? No. Is it their fault? Yes. But ultimately I believe RIGHT NOW they are one of the best 16 teams in the country, and deserve to be in the field - and the PRW does not bear that out.

A berth to the NCAA tournament is earned based on a team's achievement from the whole season. Even if the Badgers are one of the best 16 teams right now, you still must look at the whole season. If they miss the tournament because of a crappy start, then I guess they didn't earn the spot because of that start. Conference tournament games aren't worth more other games with regards to the NCAA tournament, which is right. Some games shouldn't be arbitrarily designated as more important than others in the NCAA regular season.

I like how the PRW takes a lot of the ambiguity out of the selection process, but I am not a fan of how games in October and early November - in a sport with really no exhibition season - can really cost a team. The basketball Badgers can play UW-Stout or other in-state D3 schools to be ready for their non-conf schedule....the badger skaters don't have that luxury.

I know, other hockey teams don't have it either - but this year it is really screwing us.

Actually, this year, the hockey team had the luxury of an exhibition game (against the US U-18 team) before the NCAA season started.
Also, I want the first weekend of the season to be a big "opening night" kind of thing, not just a warm-up to the season!

 

[burd]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

You Badger fans sure write a lot. Did you, like, learn a lot of that in college?

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

You Badger fans sure write a lot. Did you, like, learn a lot of that in college?

No doubt it's a shock to you burdy, but we actually had to be able to write to get in.

A berth to the NCAA tournament is earned based on a team's achievement from the whole season

Not entirely. If that were the case, the conference champions would receive the autobid, rather than the conference tournament champs. The use of the autobid is the way the NCAA attempts to mitigate the failure of the PWR to pick the best 16 at NCAA time. In theory in the scenario I gave above, or more importantly, in WI's situation where they have been missing top 6 players for nearly every game this year, if they are playing the best right now, they can win their way in.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Not entirely. If that were the case, the conference champions would receive the autobid, rather than the conference tournament champs. The use of the autobid is the way the NCAA attempts to mitigate the failure of the PWR to pick the best 16 at NCAA time.

It's the conference's choice who they give their autobid to, and they are free to give it to their regular season champs if they wished. That, however, would be stupid for several fairly obvious reasons:

1. Any chances of being able to use conference tourneys to make money to run the conferences sort of goes out the window when you remove the stakes from the event.
2. Giving the autobid to the winner of the conference tourney opens the possibility that your conference can send more teams into the NCAAs than it deserves to.
3. Seriously... what's the point of the autobid at that point? Unless you have a really lousy conference (see: the CHA several years ago), chances are your regular season champ would get an at-large bid anyway.

In theory in the scenario I gave above, or more importantly, in WI's situation where they have been missing top 6 players for nearly every game this year, if they are playing the best right now, they can win their way in.

Big problem with your little scenario, though: How in the sweet merciful crap would you possibly enforce a "well this team is playing better after getting their top 6 players back" philosophy? No matter what angle you take here, it just seems like it would be highly complicated and therefore rife with arbitrary nonsense. What you are suggesting is more of a fun criteria for why we can make excuses for Wisconsin not getting an at-large bid, sort of a First Take-style complaint filled with First Take-styled logic ("but... this isn't fair because the star players aren't rewarded!").

Sure, the PWR isn't perfect. Short of a national double-round robin, however, nothing is. The best you can do is come up with a system that has as few random/arbitrary factors as possible that tells teams to win if they want to get in. I don't care if the game is in October or March. I don't care if the blue-chip recruit can't play because he's injured or suspended or in a coma. If it's on your schedule, it should count. If it counts, you should have to win if you want to help your cause for an at-large bid. Don't make it complicated just because outside of our Frozen Four trips we've been thoroughly mediocre in the last decade.

 

[Gandalf the Red]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

It's the conference's choice who they give their autobid to, and they are free to give it to their regular season champs if they wished. That, however, would be stupid for several fairly obvious reasons:

1. Any chances of being able to use conference tourneys to make money to run the conferences sort of goes out the window when you remove the stakes from the event.
2. Giving the autobid to the winner of the conference tourney opens the possibility that your conference can send more teams into the NCAAs than it deserves to.
3. Seriously... what's the point of the autobid at that point? Unless you have a really lousy conference (see: the CHA several years ago), chances are your regular season champ would get an at-large bid anyway.

Big problem with your little scenario, though: How in the sweet merciful crap would you possibly enforce a "well this team is playing better after getting their top 6 players back" philosophy? No matter what angle you take here, it just seems like it would be highly complicated and therefore rife with arbitrary nonsense. What you are suggesting is more of a fun criteria for why we can make excuses for Wisconsin not getting an at-large bid, sort of a First Take-style complaint filled with First Take-styled logic ("but... this isn't fair because the star players aren't rewarded!").

Sure, the PWR isn't perfect. Short of a national double-round robin, however, nothing is. The best you can do is come up with a system that has as few random/arbitrary factors as possible that tells teams to win if they want to get in. I don't care if the game is in October or March. I don't care if the blue-chip recruit can't play because he's injured or suspended or in a coma. If it's on your schedule, it should count. If it counts, you should have to win if you want to help your cause for an at-large bid. Don't make it complicated just because outside of our Frozen Four trips we've been thoroughly mediocre in the last decade.

The AHA still might need an autobid. Niagara is on the right side of the bubble so they should get in regardless, but I don't remember that being the case the last few seasons. It will be interesting to see how the "new" WCHA does in the coming seasons, but I would agree that w/ some parity across college hockey and its conferences, there isn't a case screaming for the auto bid as their sole way to enter the NCAA tourney, like the CHA.

I largely agree w/ everything you said EoDS. The PWR has flaws, but it is transparent and if you spend enough time looking through it you can figure it out pretty easily. It might seem like you need to win the right games, but looking back through the schedule, there is no reason why the Badgers shouldn't have won at least a game against NMU or Tech, or at worst tied CC one night at the KC and didn't lose to PSU. You flip a few of those results and the Badgers are sitting in 13th in the PWR and we are all jumping for joy because it will be time to dance. Whether they are hot now or not does not diminish the fact that we all know they **** the bed early in the season and lost games they shouldn't have. Why play those games at all if they count less than a game in February?

Every team plays by the same set of rules in the PWR. In NCAA BB the rules are arbitrary and known by a select group of people. Sure they say this or that and people "mimic" it w/ their bracketology, but the selection committee are the people deciding who gets into that tourney, outside of the 27 or so auto bids from all those conferences. Do the same rules apply to a large conference team than a small conference team? No. You can finish 7th in the Big 10 and get rewarded with a trip to the tourney while a lot of really good 2nd place teams in small conferences go to the NIT. Is the 7th place Big 10 team really better than a 2nd place small conference team? Neither the 7th place Big 10 team, nor the 2nd place small conference team would have won the NCAA tourney in BB, but the selection committee can incorporate their bias and whatever standard they want and usually the big money conferences win out. In NCAA hockey, Quinninipac can have a great season and get rewarded for it and everyone knows it will happen, even if they might not have much of a chance to reach Pittsburgh (maybe they do, but the track record of the ECAC top seeds is not strong). Some years the "old" WCHA deserved 7 teams as the best conference in the land, and other years 4, and I think in the end the PWR is pretty clear that the top teams have done enough to get in, and if you are on the bubble you should have done a liltte more, and someone else out there did and your team will sit home. UW has been the first team out of the tourney enough times for us to understand this, and it wouldn't surprise me if that happens again this year if they finish 16th or 17th.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

It's the conference's choice who they give their autobid to, and they are free to give it to their regular season champs if they wished. That, however, would be stupid for several fairly obvious reasons:

1. Any chances of being able to use conference tourneys to make money to run the conferences sort of goes out the window when you remove the stakes from the event.
2. Giving the autobid to the winner of the conference tourney opens the possibility that your conference can send more teams into the NCAAs than it deserves to.
3. Seriously... what's the point of the autobid at that point? Unless you have a really lousy conference (see: the CHA several years ago), chances are your regular season champ would get an at-large bid anyway.

Regardless if the reason is financial or not or who decides where it goes( no doubt it is finacial in large part and it is given to tournament winners largely for the reasons you state.) the very existence of the autobid does mitigate to some extent the failure in one-off subjective circumstances of the PWR. The NCAA could conceivably just pick the top 16 PWR. (again, setting aside $$ for the moment, which I realize is completely silly in college athletics.)

Big problem with your little scenario, though: How in the sweet merciful crap would you possibly enforce a "well this team is playing better after getting their top 6 players back" philosophy? No matter what angle you take here, it just seems like it would be highly complicated and therefore rife with arbitrary nonsense. What you are suggesting is more of a fun criteria for why we can make excuses for Wisconsin not getting an at-large bid, sort of a First Take-style complaint filled with First Take-styled logic ("but... this isn't fair because the star players aren't rewarded!").

I'm not suggesting a different system at all. Merely pointing out circumstances where the PWR, in it's current form, may fail to pick the best teams. As I stated I think the current system is successful in ensuring at the very least, the 10 best teams get an opportunity. Which is certainly oodles better than football for example. Obviously if your team is in those ten, you have few complaints. If any arise it is with bubble teams that perhaps have odd seasons. The original suggestion I assume was just alluding to bouncy ball, or the old use of smoke filled back rooms in hockey that allowed, for example, the 'Backdoor Badgers' into the tournament. I do think an apolitical group of knowledgeable folks could do as well or better than the current system, but not only do apolitical groups not exist, I agree that it brings with it a whole trove of other problems. If I stretch to assume you and Sat Night Fever are both reasonable people, (a silly premise no doubt, as you're both hockey fans which practically excludes reasonableness in itself) there is disagreement in whether games should be weighted one way or another, or not at all. Reasonable points can be made both ways.

Sure, the PWR isn't perfect. Short of a national double-round robin, however, nothing is. The best you can do is come up with a system that has as few random/arbitrary factors as possible that tells teams to win if they want to get in. I don't care if the game is in October or March. I don't care if the blue-chip recruit can't play because he's injured or suspended or in a coma. If it's on your schedule, it should count. If it counts, you should have to win if you want to help your cause for an at-large bid. Don't make it complicated just because outside of our Frozen Four trips we've been thoroughly mediocre in the last decade.

Game weighting would be more subjective than arbitrary, but fair enough. I don't think any of us really disagree as to the results anyway. If Bucky, despite whatever circumstances may surround their season, cannot win next week, and probably win at least one at the FFF (Final Final Five) I don't see a selection committee OR the PWR putting them in. It's only if the season were over today that I might argue to put them in, vs. the PWR leaving them out. A small and really irrelevant distinction.

 

[Almington]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

The PWR doesn't pick the best teams for at-large bids, never had and never will. What it does do is objectively rank the teams based on predetermined criteria. I'll take that any day over letting biases make the decision at the last
minute.

So far this season, UW has lost or tied 19 games, Should UW end up the first team out, odds are almost any of those games being wins would get them in. The margin between the last team in and the first team out is tiny, often a different outcome in one game will do it. It was 08-09? where UW was the first team out and would have been the last team in if the goal in Denver had properly been counted.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I'm not suggesting a different system at all. Merely pointing out circumstances where the PWR, in it's current form, may fail to pick the best teams.

Fair enough.

While I get that PWR leaves off teams that are playing well towards the end of the season (see: us right at this moment), I'm perfectly fine with how fair it is. While it would suck for a team as good as we are right now to be left out, it would also suck for a team as awful as we were in November to be rewarded.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

The PWR doesn't pick the best teams for autobids, never had and never will.

Not necessarily arguing, but curious to know your reasoning behind this statement.

 

[Almington]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Not necessarily arguing, but curious to know your reasoning behind this statement.

I meant at-large bids, typo on my part. You can argue about the subjectivity of the PWR criteria, but I would rather have my team be left out based on known criteria than to have them left out at the last minute based on some unknown criteria or uncontrollable bias. The PWR makes it very clear that as long as you win enough compared to the other teams you will get in, if you don't win enough you won't. Every team has some adversity they have to endure over the course of the season and that is something that is impossible to quantify and compare in any objective system.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I meant at-large bids, typo on my part. You can argue about the subjectivity of the PWR criteria, but I would rather have my team be left out based on known criteria than to have them left out at the last minute based on some unknown criteria or uncontrollable bias. The PWR makes it very clear that as long as you win enough compared to the other teams you will get in, if you don't win enough you won't. Every team has some adversity they have to endure over the course of the season and that is something that is impossible to quantify and compare in any objective system.

Truth be told, I completely missed the typo. It's a monday.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

As has been stated before, DON'T be #16 or #17.

Get it done sooner.


The great thing about the PWR is that it's cut and dried. You know what you have to do.


I'd like for us to make the tourney, but if we don't, well, we don't and we'll all know why - meaning the games where we didn't get it done.

 

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Assuming he is done for the year (and at this point why wouldn't he be?) would Morgan Zullnick have the option of coming back for a 5th year with a medical hardship year having played so few games this season? He's a kid I expected some contribution offensively and his essentially not playing has hurt.