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Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

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Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

:with a straight face:

Wisconsin can be a Frozen Four team next season. They should be vastly improved on offense, and despite the potential loss of Schultz, still feature a very strong defense. IMO, it will be the play of their netminders which will make or brake the team. Given that the two goalies who saw the most significant amount of time are freshmen this season, it is certainly easy to think that they will improve by next year. Again, I'm not saying that absolutely will, but if you gave me a list to put ten teams on that I think would have the best chance to get to the Frozen Four next year, Wisconsin would be on it.

I really, really hope this assessment is accurate, or well...more accurate than my pessimistic current assessments.

I've been lamenting this team having too many grinders, and no snipers whatsoever. Not only that but I'm unsure of the goaltending just yet.

The D I'm hoping will sort itself out. McCabe looks like he'll be another McBain type, Simonelli like Jeff Dessner, Faust and Daly I'm hoping can take big steps next year.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Lack of snipers....Eaves doesn't develop marginal forward talent. The studs generally pan out, but when is the last time a forward under Eaves has blasted onto the scene out to score of no-where who wasn't supposed to do that? Gorowsky and Turnbull blasted (lose use of term) onto the scene, but they were semi highly recruited guys who rode the pine for 3 years or wallowed on the 4th line where they were miscast. How good could Gorowsky and Turnbull been had they played with non-grinders on the 3rd/4th line. Some guy who scored 3 goals as a fr, maybe 6 as a so, 11 as a jr, then 20 as a sr. Has it ever happened with Eaves? It did with Sauer, but that was a different era, I'm not sure you can compare the 2. Eaves also has preference for playing freshmen F over upperclassmen, we've all seen this. It seems to me once Eaves decides you can't "do it", your are left for dead on the pine or miscast and he'll play fr ahead of you.

If you can't develop marginal forward talent into impactedful players as seniors, maybe just 1 a year, when you do miss in judging talent or someone leaves early, there is no safety net, you have no depth. That is what we see today.

UW has 1 stud forward (Zengerlee), 4 decent forwards (Lee, Barnes, LaBate (maybe a stretch, but potential is there) & Mersch and 3 lines of 4th line grinders. How did UW get into this predicament? Basically guys left early, there really weren't any busts that I can pick out, other than Thurber getting booted. Kerdiles and Zulinik will help a ton, but honestly they probably won't shine brightly until the So. years. That would put Rumpel and Petersen in their Jr years. I would think that would be UW's best chance to contend.

As I see it, the long term issues are 2 fold, Eaves not being able to develop non stud forwards and the horribly unbalanced classes, which I didn't bring up but we all know that's the other pink elephant in the room.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

UW has 1 stud forward (Zengerlee), 4 decent forwards (Lee, Barnes, LaBate (maybe a stretch, but potential is there) & Mersch and 3 lines of 4th line grinders. How did UW get into this predicament? Basically guys left early, there really weren't any busts that I can pick out, other than Thurber getting booted. Kerdiles and Zulinik will help a ton, but honestly they probably won't shine brightly until the So. years. That would put Rumpel and Petersen in their Jr years. I would think that would be UW's best chance to contend.

As I see it, the long term issues are 2 fold, Eaves not being able to develop non stud forwards and the horribly unbalanced classes, which I didn't bring up but we all know that's the other pink elephant in the room.

that's exactly what I'm fearing is the fact they've got 3-4 talented forwards (1 of whom is elite) and about 6-8 grinders. that's really making it tough on a team to compete for an NCAA spot let alone elite status, and makes it tough on the 1 top line to keep fresh.

last year I'd argue Johnson, Dolan, Turnbull were more of the same, grinder-type guys that might pop in 8-9 goals a piece.

I guess what they need is Kerdiles and Zulinick to come in with an impact ala Zent or Heatley and have 2-3 forwards the following year who are in the same mold as the Earl's/Zengerle's/Zent's/Fairchild's etc., and then they'll be getting back to where they need to be?
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I guess what they need is Kerdiles and Zulinick to come in with an impact ala Zent or Heatley and have 2-3 forwards the following year who are in the same mold as the Earl's/Zengerle's/Zent's/Fairchild's etc., and then they'll be getting back to where they need to be?

Hopefully they will be as advertised, but the issue is that they can't be the end all. There needs to be another 1 or 2 of them coming in every year or every other year or we'll be right back in the same boat if/when these two leave early.

Players leaving early isn't the only problem. Not having their replacement when they do leave early has been an even bigger issue.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I have been thinking, and I wonder if the problem isn't not having enough top end talent, but that WI isn't producing (or UW isn't landing) the mid-level talent at forward (Burish, Dowell, as examples) who are going to be able to grow from 15 point scores as freshmen to 40 point scores as seniors while still being able to play a sound all around game that Eaves system demands. I wonder if Eaves stinginess with the scholarship $ is allowing/forcing/driving some of the WI player to other schools who are able/willing to offer a larger financial aid package.

In other words, solo might have been right in identifying the symptom, but slightly off in diagnosing the cause.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Hopefully they will be as advertised, but the issue is that they can't be the end all. There needs to be another 1 or 2 of them coming in every year or every other year or we'll be right back in the same boat if/when these two leave early.

Players leaving early isn't the only problem. Not having their replacement when they do leave early has been an even bigger issue.

totally agree with this.

and...who knows this is a shot in the dark here but if Reilly Smith and Nate Condon are badgers now would that be enough fill in the role Almington alludes too, or would the team need about 3-4 of those types who come in score 10-12, then 15-20, 25-35, then 40+?

Right now Reilly Smith 19g - 8a -27 points as a junior
Nate Condon 9g - 14a - 23points as a soph

these two I think would project to be 40+point guys as seniors (obviously assuming they're 4-year guys and I haven't gotten an indication they wouldn't be). if those 50 points were on UW now who knows but think of a UW team w/those two guys on it next season...that would have been awesome
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Players leaving early isn't the only problem. Not having their replacement when they do leave early has been an even bigger issue.

Not flaming.

Welcome to MN, until this year's re-adjustment...
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Not flaming.

Welcome to MN, until this year's re-adjustment...


What are you saying? That we need to adjust something with our Minnesotans? Is THAT what you're saying? As if simply changing something with that part of our team would be enough coz they're so, so important. Your arrogance is stunning.

Is it that if we had more Minnesota kids we'd be better? Or that we should have less Minnesota kids? Recruit more Iron Range kids so we can have more grit? Now you're not gonna tell me we need more kids from Edina (rhymes with?) coz they're a bunch of prima-donna crybabies. So confusing. :confused:

Hopefully, your state's hockey ambassador/spokesman will stop by and make your point clearer. :p



Okay, seriously, we realize that the other top programs and even Minnesota (;):p) go through this as well.

What frustrates us (me) is that others seem to weather it better than we do and while they may not be natty contenders every year, they at least contend for an appearance in the NCAA's.

And in hockey, more than many other sports, if you get there and get hot, you can certainly at least get to the Frozen Four. And if you get to the Frozen Four...

We (I) don't expect to win the whole thing every year. We also don't expect to miss the NCAA's with the frequency that we have.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I have been thinking, and I wonder if the problem isn't not having enough top end talent, but that WI isn't producing (or UW isn't landing) the mid-level talent at forward (Burish, Dowell, as examples) who are going to be able to grow from 15 point scores as freshmen to 40 point scores as seniors while still being able to play a sound all around game that Eaves system demands. I wonder if Eaves stinginess with the scholarship $ is allowing/forcing/driving some of the WI player to other schools who are able/willing to offer a larger financial aid package.

In other words, solo might have been right in identifying the symptom, but slightly off in diagnosing the cause.

This is a good argument, though I think there are a few players, freshman, who will turn into this mid-level talent or better: Woods and Navin. They have both showed flashes of giving something more to the team, but then fade and/or are stuck on the bottom lines grinding. I'm waiting for Jason Clark to do something too, he scored a lot of goals at Shattuck.

I look at this from a different angle. I don't think offense is the problem, I think defense is the problem. This team is letting up 3.2 goals/game in WCHA play. That is just too high, plain and simple. To make matters worse, the PK is LAST in the WCHA at 74% or so. This is not UW hockey. Some of this can be contributed to the freshman goalies, but the defense is just not good enough. We don't have the kind of two way forwards the team enjoyed for many seasons like Burish, Dowell, Geoffrion, Bohmbach, Stepan, Street, Murray, etc. The blue line is very young still, and Schultz can't do everything, even if it seems like he can.

If you look back over the past few seasons, this team isn't scoring that poorly, but the goals allowed per game is the worst in six years:

Goals Scored/Goal Allowed (per game)
06/07: 2.27/2.02
07/08: 2.85/2.55
08/09: 3.28/2.65
09/10: 3.98/2.58
10/11: 3.15/2.39
11/12: 3.12/2.96

This leads me to a few conclusions. 1) The offense on this team isn't as bad as some are making it out to be. If you look at the stats, 3 players already have 10 or more goals and 7 already have 10+ points, w/ 5 more a few away from making double digits w/ at least 10 games to play. Basically, the top lines are doing ok, and the bottom lines are doing their job too, scoring here and there, which is what is expected of them. Play good defense and when they score its a bonus for the team. 2) My other conclusion is that the WCHA is a little down this season overall, and that means this Badgers team is overachieving offensively, but then underachieving significantly against the somewhat watered down conference opponent quality. And that might not be true either, it just seems the WCHA isn't stacking up as well against everyone else.

I didn't look at defensemen scoring, but just a glance at the player stats says it is way down. It is hard to compete w/ the defense for the ages a few years back, but Gardiner is a big loss last season, Springer is not very good, and Ramage is frankly playing like crap most nights.

So, my point, compared to some past Badger teams the scoring isn't the issue, defense and goaltending is. Honestly, if Zengerle returns next season, there should be NO issues for offense, especially if someone can run the power play (McCabe?) w/ the new additions. The real question is, can the defense, goaltending and PK improve significantly? While several other Eaves teams have not hosted first round WCHA games, all of those teams were in contention right down to the wire in the past 5 seasons, while this team is sunk w/ 8 to play.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

This is a good argument, though I think there are a few players, freshman, who will turn into this mid-level talent or better: Woods and Navin. They have both showed flashes of giving something more to the team, but then fade and/or are stuck on the bottom lines grinding. I'm waiting for Jason Clark to do something too, he scored a lot of goals at Shattuck.

I look at this from a different angle. I don't think offense is the problem, I think defense is the problem. This team is letting up 3.2 goals/game in WCHA play. That is just too high, plain and simple. To make matters worse, the PK is LAST in the WCHA at 74% or so. This is not UW hockey. Some of this can be contributed to the freshman goalies, but the defense is just not good enough. We don't have the kind of two way forwards the team enjoyed for many seasons like Burish, Dowell, Geoffrion, Bohmbach, Stepan, Street, Murray, etc. The blue line is very young still, and Schultz can't do everything, even if it seems like he can.

If you look back over the past few seasons, this team isn't scoring that poorly, but the goals allowed per game is the worst in six years:

Goals Scored/Goal Allowed (per game)
06/07: 2.27/2.02
07/08: 2.85/2.55
08/09: 3.28/2.65
09/10: 3.98/2.58
10/11: 3.15/2.39
11/12: 3.12/2.96

This leads me to a few conclusions. 1) The offense on this team isn't as bad as some are making it out to be. If you look at the stats, 3 players already have 10 or more goals and 7 already have 10+ points, w/ 5 more a few away from making double digits w/ at least 10 games to play. Basically, the top lines are doing ok, and the bottom lines are doing their job too, scoring here and there, which is what is expected of them. Play good defense and when they score its a bonus for the team. 2) My other conclusion is that the WCHA is a little down this season overall, and that means this Badgers team is overachieving offensively, but then underachieving significantly against the somewhat watered down conference opponent quality. And that might not be true either, it just seems the WCHA isn't stacking up as well against everyone else.

I didn't look at defensemen scoring, but just a glance at the player stats says it is way down. It is hard to compete w/ the defense for the ages a few years back, but Gardiner is a big loss last season, Springer is not very good, and Ramage is frankly playing like crap most nights.

So, my point, compared to some past Badger teams the scoring isn't the issue, defense and goaltending is. Honestly, if Zengerle returns next season, there should be NO issues for offense, especially if someone can run the power play (McCabe?) w/ the new additions. The real question is, can the defense, goaltending and PK improve significantly? While several other Eaves teams have not hosted first round WCHA games, all of those teams were in contention right down to the wire in the past 5 seasons, while this team is sunk w/ 8 to play.

I think that the poor PK numbers can be somewhat attributed to the youth and inexperience at forward, if those forwards don't do what they are supposed to and make mistakes that leaves many shooting/passing lanes open and that will inevitably lead to good scoring opportunities (and thus goals) for the other team. Improving the PK up towards the 90% level should save about 0.3 goals per games which should help get the GAA down towards the 2.5 to 2.6 range it should be for teams to be successful.

Ideally, a team will want a average goal differential (GFA-GAA) to be greater than +1.0 (on the average scoring one more goal a game than they give up). If a team can average even +0.5 over the course of the season (particularly in conference play), it will find success.

As for goaltending, I worried at the time about Eaves bringing in Bennett back in 09-10 as opposed to a freshman, knowing that UW would be playing with a pair of freshmen in from of an inexperienced team and that this would certainly be reflected in the number that they put up this season. It's hard to accurately evaluate goalies when the team in front of them is making so many mistakes. I suspect that the goalies numbers will improve as the team that plays in front of them improves.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Peeks in the door: Is it safe yet?

I think Wisconsin should have more Minnesota players because then you would be easier to hate. That might resolve some troublesome conflicts some of us have from kinda liking you guys.

In a good way. Nothing funny going on here.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Just a casual observer in the discussion.

When you talk about offensive numbers, you also need to add the perspective of the circumstances behind them. 20 of their 81 goals came in two home series against two relatively easy opponents in RIT and Mercyhurst. Obviously that is going to skew things higher from a team/individual statistical standpoint from a full season perspective. So it could mislead you into thinking the offense is better than maybe it really is. Of course, you could say that about many teams but it's worth pointing out when you look at season stat averages.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

totally agree with this.

and...who knows this is a shot in the dark here but if Reilly Smith and Nate Condon are badgers now would that be enough fill in the role Almington alludes too, or would the team need about 3-4 of those types who come in score 10-12, then 15-20, 25-35, then 40+?

Right now Reilly Smith 19g - 8a -27 points as a junior
Nate Condon 9g - 14a - 23points as a soph

these two I think would project to be 40+point guys as seniors (obviously assuming they're 4-year guys and I haven't gotten an indication they wouldn't be). if those 50 points were on UW now who knows but think of a UW team w/those two guys on it next season...that would have been awesome

Condon is really coming on as a player. Quickly becoming one of my personal favorites as a very good all around player. I'm not sure he'll make it to his senior season with the way he is progressing (maybe) but I have my fingers crossed.

I was told a large number of colleges were interested in him but for some reason UW seemed to think he wasn't "in play" with other schools. One person close to the kid told me a few years ago that he felt UW didn't do their homework on that situation and acted a bit "lazy". Not sure why but maybe they figured because of some family ties (i.e. his aunt who is now President of UW's W Club), he wouldn't seriously consider elsewhere. If so, big mistake...
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Just a casual observer in the discussion.

When you talk about offensive numbers, you also need to add the perspective of the circumstances behind them. 20 of their 81 goals came in two home series against two relatively easy opponents in RIT and Mercyhurst. Obviously that is going to skew things higher from a team/individual statistical standpoint from a full season perspective. So it could mislead you into thinking the offense is better than maybe it really is. Of course, you could say that about many teams but it's worth pointing out when you look at season stat averages.


I was thinking along the same lines. Average goals per game only tells a small part of the story.

How many are we getting and who is scoring them when we play against tougher opponents?

This is where you need more talent spread throughout the lineup as the better teams can and do shut down top lines. Gotta have a second and third line with difference makers on them, even if those players are only occasionally difference makers.

If you have enough spread throughout the top three lines, you dramatically increase your chances of one of them having one of their 2-3 impact nights of the season against a tough opponent.

I'm not talking superstars here. I'm referring to a sniper or a fast skater or a good set-up guy. Otherwise incomplete players who have one special skill that if the cards fall right, they can capitalize.

As some of us have said before, it seems as though we have a top line and then three lines of indistinguishable grinders.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

the problem with this team is a lack of talent. The early departures hurt, esp c. smith. Smith and zengerle this year would be fantastic. This team has several players that don't belong on the ice for a top tier D 1 team plain and simple. I would say three forwards that are in the lineup every night they are healthy, and two defenseman just dont bring much to the table at this level. Not even counting Navin who is good enough, but would have benefitted greatly from playing a year in the ushl. All u have to do is watch the puck movement and panic point of these players, with the highly talented recruiting class next year the probably wont be in the lineup. Remember our third and fourth liners on the championship team, huge difference right now.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

What are you saying? That we need to adjust something with our Minnesotans? Is THAT what you're saying? As if simply changing something with that part of our team would be enough coz they're so, so important. Your arrogance is stunning.

Is it that if we had more Minnesota kids we'd be better? Or that we should have less Minnesota kids? Recruit more Iron Range kids so we can have more grit? Now you're not gonna tell me we need more kids from Edina (rhymes with?) coz they're a bunch of prima-donna crybabies. So confusing. :confused:

I'm not the Minnesota Hockey ambassador but I think Hoven was just trying to say Bucky this year reminds him of the Gophers the last few years.

Moving on now. :)
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I'm not the Minnesota Hockey ambassador but I think Hoven was just trying to say Bucky this year reminds him of the Gophers the last few years.

Moving on now. :)



The only way I could have been more clear that the top part of that post was a joke or sarcastic is if I had said, "This first part is a joke."
 
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