Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

Another interesting point that hasn't been brought up is that while Barry may be the face of the athletic department, he's not making the hockey decisions. Sean Frazier is that man. Frazier is the administrator that's in charge of hockey and is making the majority of these decisions despite Barry having the final signature on everything.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

Another interesting point that hasn't been brought up is that while Barry may be the face of the athletic department, he's not making the hockey decisions. Sean Frazier is that man. Frazier is the administrator that's in charge of hockey and is making the majority of these decisions despite Barry having the final signature on everything.

Frazer may make the day to day decision on general operating activities, but the larger strategic decisions come down from BA. If BA doesn't decide on the overall strategic direction of the AD and he sucks at PR, why the hell is he the AD?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

I have no doubt that Barry trusts Frazer in a lot of decisions (and maybe Frazer deserves his share of criticism by the angry mob on this board), but there's a limit to which those two can disagree about things before it goes Barry's way.

 

[badger79]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

I think you misunderstand Barry Alvarez. He may be thinking of wringing more $ out of hockey, but he's attempting to do it as "can we make this more like football/roundball" in terms of scheduling, conferences, etc... which shows just how far he is from the fanbase and his lack of understanding of the game. He'd pipe in jump around every game if he could which...says a lot.

First, Barry didn't do this on his own. He probably takes a lot of advice from Eaves and other people in the hockey program. He's not making the schedule on his own; the B1G is deciding that as a conference. They've asked for weekday games. Alvarez didn't turn around and say, "Okay, I want weekday games, now make it happen." I know Alvarez was a BTHC proponent, but I can't blame him for wanting out of the WCHA. He's tried other things with hockey, like the Camp Randall Classic...and was promptly told that we couldn't play Minnesota. It's that kind of environment that frustrated Alvarez. The Big Ten has never had six schools playing a sport and not sponsored that sport. Our roots with other Big Ten schools go much much deeper than our roots with most WCHA schools. We have more in common with other Big Ten schools. The WCHA used to be good, but now it's watered down with too many teams.

Barry didn't turn around the Athletic Department that was 100% Pat Richter who did the hiring of football and roundball guys that led to this. A winning football program that can draw 77,000 per game always helps but I'm certainly not going to be one of these Alvarez worshipers because of it; prior to football coming back I was perfectly happy watching the Hockey team w/Richter, Mellanby, Granato, Tuttle et al kick some *** and take names annually. Football winning and roundball is icing on the cake, when hockey was #1 I was not crying about 9-9 roundball conference seasons, or don morton.

Let's give some credit to Shalala, who made it her personal mission to rejuvenate UW athletics when she came aboard. Richter did the hiring (but then, too, remember that it took Richter longer than it should have to hire Dick Bennett), but Barry turned around the football program. That's fine if YOU don't care about the football or basketball programs. But you need to understand that most Wisconsin fans care more about football/basketball. I love all three sports. I had hockey season tickets when I lived in Madison; hockey games were my favorite of the three to attend. But I understand that football drives the bus. Football runs the athletic department. Shalala, Richter and Alvarez all understood this as well.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

First, Barry didn't do this on his own. He probably takes a lot of advice from Eaves and other people in the hockey program. He's not making the schedule on his own; the B1G is deciding that as a conference. They've asked for weekday games. Alvarez didn't turn around and say, "Okay, I want weekday games, now make it happen." I know Alvarez was a BTHC proponent, but I can't blame him for wanting out of the WCHA. He's tried other things with hockey, like the Camp Randall Classic...and was promptly told that we couldn't play Minnesota. It's that kind of environment that frustrated Alvarez. The Big Ten has never had six schools playing a sport and not sponsored that sport. Our roots with other Big Ten schools go much much deeper than our roots with most WCHA schools. We have more in common with other Big Ten schools. The WCHA used to be good, but now it's watered down with too many teams.



Let's give some credit to Shalala, who made it her personal mission to rejuvenate UW athletics when she came aboard. Richter did the hiring (but then, too, remember that it took Richter longer than it should have to hire Dick Bennett), but Barry turned around the football program. That's fine if YOU don't care about the football or basketball programs. But you need to understand that most Wisconsin fans care more about football/basketball. I love all three sports. I had hockey season tickets when I lived in Madison; hockey games were my favorite of the three to attend. But I understand that football drives the bus. Football runs the athletic department. Shalala, Richter and Alvarez all understood this as well.

The WCHA is waterered down? How exactly? 10 teams is too many for hockey but oh yeah 12 or 16 is awesome for football?

Also, let's just agree that we're never going to agree on our outlooks on College hockey vs. the $>integrity sports.

UW has longer standing rivalries w/MSU, OSU and Michigan in Hockey? I conclude you're not serious. The rivalries w/Denver, MTU, Minnesota, Nodak got much deeper, MUCH deeper then the other b10 hockey schools

 

[badger79]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

The WCHA is waterered down? How exactly? 10 teams is too many for hockey but oh yeah 12 or 16 is awesome for football?

Also, let's just agree that we're never going to agree on our outlooks on College hockey vs. the $>integrity sports.

UW has longer standing rivalries w/MSU, OSU and Michigan in Hockey? I conclude you're not serious. The rivalries w/Denver, MTU, Minnesota, Nodak got much deeper, MUCH deeper then the other b10 hockey schools

*Rolls eyes* OVERALL, our athletic departments have deeper ties to Michigan State, Ohio State and Michigan. Not JUST hockey. What the hell else do we have in common with Denver and MTU other than hockey? The whole point of the athletic conference is that it's a group of like-minded schools. That's why a conference like the Big Ten has been stable for over a hundred years.

I agree that we're never going to agree on this, so maybe we should just let it go.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

*Rolls eyes* OVERALL, our athletic departments have deeper ties to Michigan State, Ohio State and Michigan. Not JUST hockey. What the hell else do we have in common with Denver and MTU other than hockey? The whole point of the athletic conference is that it's a group of like-minded schools. That's why a conference like the Big Ten has been stable for over a hundred years.

I agree that we're never going to agree on this, so maybe we should just let it go.

stable? do you call adding Penn State and Nebraska stable? that's a cynical ploy for money and flip off notre dame simultaneously.

breaking the football conference in 1/2 calling it "leaders" and "legends" and pushing all of UW football's rivals into the opposite conference is stability?

the AD has ties to the B10 schools in the B10 sports they play together, roundball and football. not hockey,

hockey has no such intensity in the b10 rivalries, despite their previous "b10" conference championships of the 70's, and despite playing michigan and msu once a year for the 18 years or so.

in the end it comes down to this. if you're an NCAA hockey fan of UW or UMN, you generally don't give a rats *** about MSU/PSU/OSU/Mich hockey.

if you're a casual sports fan you likely still don't care because hockey is so far down on the radar

 

[badger79]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

stable? do you call adding Penn State and Nebraska stable? that's a cynical ploy for money and flip off notre dame simultaneously.

breaking the football conference in 1/2 calling it "leaders" and "legends" and pushing all of UW football's rivals into the opposite conference is stability?

the AD has ties to the B10 schools in the B10 sports they play together, roundball and football. not hockey,

hockey has no such intensity in the b10 rivalries, despite their previous "b10" conference championships of the 70's, and despite playing michigan and msu once a year for the 18 years or so.

in the end it comes down to this. if you're an NCAA hockey fan of UW or UMN, you generally don't give a rats *** about MSU/PSU/OSU/Mich hockey.

if you're a casual sports fan you likely still don't care because hockey is so far down on the radar

"Stability" means that the conference has lasted a long time and will last a long time. Do you think the conference is on the verge of falling apart? Adding Nebraska and Penn State (these moves were made 20 years apart, btw) are not indicators of instability. Now, if teams had left for other conferences, that would be an indication of instability.

Maybe we don't care about Michigan/Michigan State/Ohio State right now. I don't care about them much either. But we will. If you had told any UW fan 15 years ago that Michigan State would one day be one of our big rivals in basketball, they'd have laughed in your face. Things CAN change for the better.

 

[davearm]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

Every other sport at the UW (that I'm aware of, maybe not rowing) participates in the B10. Only hockey plays in a conference with hugely dissimilar and/or geographically distant schools like Alaska, CC, Mankato, MTU, etc. Do people not see the disconnect here?

Imagine for a moment that there was a movement afoot to have the basketball team or football team leave the Big Ten and join a conference with a membership profile like the WCHA's. It'd be an absolute joke. Yet here people are clinging to the status quo for hockey.

My prediction is that rivalries with OSU, UM and MSU will be as intense as those with UND, DU and CC within 3 years. Meanwhile PSU will be no better or worse than about 5 or 6 current WCHA teams.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

in the end it comes down to this. if you're an NCAA hockey fan of UW or UMN, you generally don't give a rats *** about MSU/PSU/OSU/Mich hockey.

I placed the showcase games (especially Michigan) above everyone except North Dakota and Minnesota. Never really felt the rivalry with Denver although they've certainly been a good program.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

I placed the showcase games (especially Michigan) above everyone except North Dakota and Minnesota. Never really felt the rivalry with Denver although they've certainly been a good program.

Rivalries do not exist between teams, they exist between fan bases of those teams. Rivalries exist because fan bases hate each other, and this is why DU and CC are not huge rivals of UW regardless of how good of team they have from season to season.

In today's behaviorally sanitized world, none of the B1G programs are ever going to be as hated as UND is, another water bottle game just isn't going to happen.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

"Stability" means that the conference has lasted a long time and will last a long time. Do you think the conference is on the verge of falling apart? Adding Nebraska and Penn State (these moves were made 20 years apart, btw) are not indicators of instability. Now, if teams had left for other conferences, that would be an indication of instability.

The WCHA has been around for nearly 60 years, longer than all but a handful of the full sport conferences. If that isn't indicative of being stable, I don't know what is.

Every other sport at the UW (that I'm aware of, maybe not rowing) participates in the B10. Only hockey plays in a conference with hugely dissimilar and/or geographically distant schools like Alaska, CC, Mankato, MTU, etc. Do people not see the disconnect here?

Imagine for a moment that there was a movement afoot to have the basketball team or football team leave the Big Ten and join a conference with a membership profile like the WCHA's. It'd be an absolute joke. Yet here people are clinging to the status quo for hockey.

If UW basketball was moving to a conference with a pair of 7 time national champions, the CURRENT national champion, members of that conference have won 35 of 62 NCAA national championships offered in that sport and that conference typically fills 25% of the national tournament, what national power wouldn't want to be a member of that conference?

Hockey isn't basketball or football, one size does NOT fit all sports. Wake me up when UW wins a national title in a match (as opposed to meet) sport that isn't hockey.

 

[davearm]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

Another thing that seems to be getting lost in all of this hand-wringing is that at the end of the day, a program like Wisconsin's measures its success by NCAA appearances, Frozen Fours, and national championships, not by how well they do in the conference.

How many Badger fans could tell you how many MacNaughton Cups the team has won? And I don't even remember the name of the other trophy... is it the Broadmore or something? And which is for regular season and which is for the tourney? Who cares.

So we replace an early-season WCHA series vs. MSU-Mankato or St. Cloud or whomever with a non-conference series against some ECAC school. BFD. They both count the same in the PairWise, which is really what matters anyway.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

Rivalries do not exist between teams, they exist between fan bases of those teams. Rivalries exist because fan bases hate each other, and this is why DU and CC are not huge rivals of UW regardless of how good of team they have from season to season.

In today's behaviorally sanitized world, none of the B1G programs are ever going to be as hated as UND is, another water bottle game just isn't going to happen.

The water bottle game keeps being brought up over the years and it's ancient history at this point. It's a good marker of where the rivalry was at that time, maybe the 5 years prior and 5 after. It's fun to look back and go "****!" It has absolutely no bearing on today's rivalry though.

That era of Badger hockey and Badger hockey fandom is long, long gone. It left with the Coliseum and the beer garden.

A common trend that I'm seeing in posts on this subject of leaving the WCHA:

A major inferiority complex of those Badger hockey fans who really only follow that sport or who place Badger hockey far above hoops and football. Or maybe not inferiority, but more of a pining for more respect for past accomplishments.

"Why don't we get respect?" "Don't you know who we are?" "We CARRIED this school's athletic pride through the 70s and 80s!"

Sorry folks, as much as I don't like it, the hoops basketball appearance in the Final Four in 2000 by itself probably eclipses all of our hockey titles combined in terms of prestige for the university. Same with the 3 Rose Bowls and the Heisman. Being a hockey player and fan, I wish our sport got more run, but I understand and accept that it doesn't.

In addition, we haven't been that hockey first school since about 1995 when the football program took off and carried the athletic department and brought along basketball for the ride. At the same time, the hockey program went through it's decline, relatively speaking of course comparing it to the level of success that we had from 73 through 93.

As I stated earlier, moving to the KC didn't help either as it watered down the fan base and made it less of an exclusive event for people to go to. It took away the somewhat "underground" status that the hockey fans seemed to enjoy.

Before the KC, there was actually a waiting list for season tickets and Badger hockey could be a tough ticket. Beer sales certainly helped also as (Hockey Fan) x (Beer) = (More Rabid Fans). It's just not as much fun for certain elements of the old crowd to go to games anymore.

Don't get me wrong, the Coliseum is a dump and I LOVE my fat cat seats at the KC. But the atmosphere is not the same or even a shadow of what it once was.

Same goes for Badger hockey fans. It ain't like it used to be and since those old fans are slowly but surely being replaced or changed (like me), I believe that great new rivalries will develop with Michigan and possibly Michigan State.

Not over water bottles or brawls as that hockey is even long gone from the NHL, but rather from one team or the other preventing the opponent from getting to where they want to go, whether that be Big Ten Champs or an NCAA berth.

Remember, Michigan is quite possibly more arrogant than Minnesota. I'm sure it won't be hard to hate them. In fact, I already do.

 

[wjefwhite]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

There has been good back and forth in this thread and points well taken. I am with the glass is half full group.

I have read all the posts by the negative camp. I find it tiring, old and just all around sour grapes. Come up with some solutions. Stay in the WCHA? MTU, AA and Mankato for the rest of our lives. No thank you. B10 rivalries in hockey will come over time. You're very short sighted when it comes to BA and our hockey program which is one of the best in college hockey. I agree with those that call the WCHA a joke. Let's see how they do with the so called super conference.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

Only hockey plays in a conference with hugely dissimilar and/or geographically distant schools like Alaska, CC, Mankato, MTU, etc. Do people not see the disconnect here?

I will agree UW playing a litany of non-b11 teams in the WCHA hurts their presence with non-traditional/casual fans. When I first discovered UW hockey back in the mid-80's, I said to myself, "Why are they playing a Tech school from MI?" Now that was far before the internet, and it took me awhile to get it firgured out, but then once I learned about the rivalries and history, it was cool. The B11 Hockey Conference has a bunch of positives, but the planning of the conference has to take advantage of these positives.

Anyone else see Barry's gonna be a million dollar man? Maybe he could pony up some of his $ for the practice facility, now that he's not destitute anymore.

Frazer oversees the hockey programs, but Barry "I'm not a hockey guy" Alvarez is ultimately accountable.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

The water bottle game keeps being brought up over the years and it's ancient history at this point. It's a good marker of where the rivalry was at that time, maybe the 5 years prior and 5 after. It's fun to look back and go "****!" It has absolutely no bearing on today's rivalry though.

My point is that events like that are what it takes to build a emotionally fueled rivalry of hate even if the impact of that event decreases with time.

To believe that any of the B1G schools can have a UND type rivalry in the next three years is unrealistic.

My problem with all these changes isn't the "what" of the changes, but the "why" of the changes. For the most part, the "what" of the changes is a inconsequential as to make little difference to the health of the overall program because I view the conference switch as a lateral move, the B1G conference isn't going to be any stronger than the WCHA has been. In the past games have been moved off the regular Friday-Saturday cycle because of conflicts, and us fans may not have liked it but we tolerated it as being an necessary exception.

The problem is the "why" of all these changes, it wasn't to directly make the hockey program better, but to try and wring a few more $$. Making major changes for no reason but greed doesn't sit well with me, and of equal importance the person whose job it was to sell these changes to the fans has failed miserably in PR 101 with respect to the whole hockey program.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

The problem is the "why" of all these changes, it wasn't to directly make the hockey program better, but to try and wring a few more $$. Making major changes for no reason but greed doesn't sit well with me, and of equal importance the person whose job it was to sell these changes to the fans has failed miserably in PR 101 with respect to the whole hockey program.

As someone who used to listen to many of his post game press conferences, I would have been shocked if he DIDN'T fail at the PR.

Kissing babies and saying nice things isn't his strong suit by any stretch. As an AD, yes, he should be better at this.

My favorite post game moment was when he was asked about an option on 4th and 1 which failed and ultimately cost us the game and he said with a straight face and a dare you attitude, "I don't remember that play." Of course, our chicken-s_h_i_t reporters backed down and moved on.

 

[davearm]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

My point is that events like that are what it takes to build a emotionally fueled rivalry of hate even if the impact of that event decreases with time.

To believe that any of the B1G schools can have a UND type rivalry in the next three years is unrealistic.

For me anyway (and probably for anyone else that follows the other big sports), the "new" rivalries are at a UND level already.

UND has the water bottle, etc.

Michigan State has Tom Izzo v. Bo Ryan, the only regular-season defeat in football last year, etc.

OSU has beating their #1 ranked team in two sports the same year, Jim Sorgi getting choked on national TV, etc

Michigan, well where do I even start

For people that don't care much about anything but hockey, it'll take awhile. For everyone else, the passion will be there right from the beginning.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XVIII - Belief in a Better Tomorrow

I interrupt your regularly scheduled Big 10 debate/Barry bashing for this brief tidbit.

Former Wisconsin Badger and current Los Angeles Kings defenseman Davis Drewiske is holding a 3 on 3 hockey tournament Friday, July 15th in Hudson, WI with proceeds going to benefit the Huntington's Disease Society of America. If your not familiar with Huntington's, it's a very serious illness that former Badger Jake Dowell's father has. Here is an article done by the CBS National News on the Dowell family back from 2004 on Jake getting tested for Huntington's.

I think it takes a pretty awesome friend of Jake's like Davis Drewiske to put an event on like this to help raise money for Huntingtons. It's not too late to get your kid into the 3 on 3 tournament and it sounds sweet. Each 3 on 3 team will get to play with an NHL hockey player. Players scheduled to attend: Jake Dowell (Dallas Stars), Ryan McDonagh (New York Rangers), Derek Stepan (New York Rangers), Adam Burish (Dallas Stars), Tom Gilbert (Edmonton Oilers), Brian Elliott (St. Louis Blues), Blake Geoffrion (Nashville Predators), Matt Greene (L.A. Kings), Peter Herold (L.A. Kings), Kevin Westgarth (L.A. Kings), and Scott Parse (L.A. Kings) as well as obviously Davis Drewiske of the L.A. Kings.

Additionally, there is going to be a live band (which I hear is supposed to be awesome), an auction, a raffle, as well as a food and beer tent. I would encourage anyone that can make it over to Hudson July 15th to do so. Obviously in addition to meeting some NHL stars and former Badger National Champions, raising money for Huntington's which is a disease that hits so close to home with one of our own former Badger parents should really be cool.

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