Chuck Schwartz
New member
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
I'm not disagreeing.
I'm not disagreeing.
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WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, What?
- Status
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
And it's killing attendance.
VERY depressing to go to a game and have over half of the 200's empty and a good portion of the 100's also empty.
Can't wait for Friday night!
And it's killing attendance.
VERY depressing to go to a game and have over half of the 200's empty and a good portion of the 100's also empty.
Can't wait for Friday night!
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
I used the Saturday game for talking points for my bantam team's pre game talk on Sunday morning.
We're trying to stress the importance on the little things, especially good, crisp, accurate passing. Tape to tape.
Trying to show them how this will buy them time and space and how it all falls apart with a pass that's in the skates, behind the receiving player or one that flutters.
Those that had watched the Badger game were citing examples that they had seen the night before.
We had a really good game, btw.
I used the Saturday game for talking points for my bantam team's pre game talk on Sunday morning.
We're trying to stress the importance on the little things, especially good, crisp, accurate passing. Tape to tape.
Trying to show them how this will buy them time and space and how it all falls apart with a pass that's in the skates, behind the receiving player or one that flutters.
Those that had watched the Badger game were citing examples that they had seen the night before.
We had a really good game, btw.
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
Michigan. I don't think it's even close when comparing the Gophers to them looking at the long list of home regionals.
Probably has a little something to do with this series will continue in the future no matter what. Not so with the no-name team. That and no one has been pulled from a handshake line.... yet.
Michigan. I don't think it's even close when comparing the Gophers to them looking at the long list of home regionals.
But on the bright side, by losing 3 pts. this weekend, and not saying anything mean about his hair, Wisconsin didn't get placed on Don's dreaded "Unhealthy Rivalry" list. So you got that going for you.
Probably has a little something to do with this series will continue in the future no matter what. Not so with the no-name team. That and no one has been pulled from a handshake line.... yet.
icebadger
icebadger
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
A little graphical aid to the argument at hand:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/wackybadger/8200046775/" title="Wisconsin Hockey - Eaves' Era by wackybadger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8064/8200046775_c4d965aec9.jpg" width="500" height="364" alt="Wisconsin Hockey - Eaves' Era"></a>
This Eaves' era roughly covers the period that I've been attending games and if anything, it looks like this recent downturn 2010-11 to present is a little worse and a little longer-lasting than 2-year hangover following the '06 title. I'm not sure whether the addition of 2 teams in Bemidgi St. and UNO in 2010 makes our 10th place finish seem better or worse (never mind, it was just terrible).
Personally, I don't expect us to win the MacNaughton that often. It's only happened 3 times in the program's history. I do expect the team to be, let's say top 3-4 in the standings consistently and/or win the WCHA playoffs more often (11 times total, last one in 1998). I don't know the Sauer era as well, but perhaps the more 'experienced' of those among us can enlighten us on the ups and downs of that era.
A little graphical aid to the argument at hand:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/wackybadger/8200046775/" title="Wisconsin Hockey - Eaves' Era by wackybadger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8064/8200046775_c4d965aec9.jpg" width="500" height="364" alt="Wisconsin Hockey - Eaves' Era"></a>
This Eaves' era roughly covers the period that I've been attending games and if anything, it looks like this recent downturn 2010-11 to present is a little worse and a little longer-lasting than 2-year hangover following the '06 title. I'm not sure whether the addition of 2 teams in Bemidgi St. and UNO in 2010 makes our 10th place finish seem better or worse (never mind, it was just terrible).
Personally, I don't expect us to win the MacNaughton that often. It's only happened 3 times in the program's history. I do expect the team to be, let's say top 3-4 in the standings consistently and/or win the WCHA playoffs more often (11 times total, last one in 1998). I don't know the Sauer era as well, but perhaps the more 'experienced' of those among us can enlighten us on the ups and downs of that era.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
very illustrative graph, thanks.
to me UW has the facilities and history to beat 60 of 64 teams out there (mich, minnesota, nodak, denver would be 4 I'd argue can give UW a run in one or the other or both), with that at your disposal alone you should be able to put an NCAA team together by accident. We're talking about being a top 16 team of 64. make the top 25%. shouldn't be that difficult. a down year or two happens to everyone but 4 of 6 and likely 5 of 7? that is what is absolutely unacceptable.
anyway, Jeff Sauer: took over for Badger Bob and reeled off 13 consecutive seasons of 21 wins or more and 21 was the anomaly, the next lowest total in that run was 23 games won. After winning the title in 83 UW missed the NCAA's 4 straight years, however they were in contention those years and had great teams (Scott Mellanby, Tony Granato, Steve Tuttle, Paul Ranheim et al), there was very little if any complaining, I mean hell they beat the U.S. olympic team at some point in there (I think 87?) and the were in contention and that's the major point, they were ALWAYS in contention.
what derailed Sauer was two major things: Losing Grant Standbrook derailed the Canada pipeline...but even after that UW got the pick of the best recruits in the country for another 2-4 years where **** near everyone they brought in was coveted by the BC's, Nodak's, DU's, Michigan's of the world: Blaine Moore, Brian Rafalski, Jason Zent, Kelly Fairchild, Chris Tucker, Chris Nelson, Sean Hill, Doug McDonald, Andrew Schier, Barry Richter, Dan Plante, Jason Francisco, Jamie Spencer, Max Williams, Jim Carey
(that run of recruits should have landed *at least* one NCAA title but it goes to what Almington alludes too, playing as a cohesive TEAM, which they certainly did not, they had too much talent maybe. played like there were 5 pucks out there... however where I disagree in part is that these UW teams while they didn't play cohesively were so effing loaded with talent up and down the roster that they won in spite of themselves, their worst record being 24-15-4 (that being the year where all that was left of the core was Spencer/Rafalski/Williams))
point 2 on Sauer, 1992. plain and simple 1992's NCAA final's meltdown had many parents turned off to UW and rival coaches used it against them in recruiting for the next 4-5 years.
the first tell-tale sign of trouble was losing out on Brian Holzinger (future hobey baker winner). later it was guys like matt pettinger and more. Sauer began to lose out on the big-time gets and even the guys that would be great 2nd-line players. consequently they were derailed. Dany Heatley and Steven Reinprecht came in and masked the larger problem of a roster full of 3rd and 4th liners. once they were gone it was the end of Sauer's era
Eaves is in trouble right now. The fans are speaking by not showing up to the games. It's embarrassing in all aspects. There's no reason for this but it is what's happening and right now we have no choice but to sit here and hope that 2 players can turn the season around. to me that underscores what I said last year, there's just a dearth of talent on this team, plain and simple. Gurtholfin analyzed this past weekend far better than I ever could
and to think of the future, what happens if UW doesn't make the NCAA's this year? Zengerle leaves? and UW has 1 season to try and make a run and the turnover happens again and it's huge. Kerdiles will likely go after 2 years and where's the scoring going to come from? A frosh named Grant Besse? he can't shoulder the load by himself.
someone send me some optimism
very illustrative graph, thanks.
to me UW has the facilities and history to beat 60 of 64 teams out there (mich, minnesota, nodak, denver would be 4 I'd argue can give UW a run in one or the other or both), with that at your disposal alone you should be able to put an NCAA team together by accident. We're talking about being a top 16 team of 64. make the top 25%. shouldn't be that difficult. a down year or two happens to everyone but 4 of 6 and likely 5 of 7? that is what is absolutely unacceptable.
anyway, Jeff Sauer: took over for Badger Bob and reeled off 13 consecutive seasons of 21 wins or more and 21 was the anomaly, the next lowest total in that run was 23 games won. After winning the title in 83 UW missed the NCAA's 4 straight years, however they were in contention those years and had great teams (Scott Mellanby, Tony Granato, Steve Tuttle, Paul Ranheim et al), there was very little if any complaining, I mean hell they beat the U.S. olympic team at some point in there (I think 87?) and the were in contention and that's the major point, they were ALWAYS in contention.
what derailed Sauer was two major things: Losing Grant Standbrook derailed the Canada pipeline...but even after that UW got the pick of the best recruits in the country for another 2-4 years where **** near everyone they brought in was coveted by the BC's, Nodak's, DU's, Michigan's of the world: Blaine Moore, Brian Rafalski, Jason Zent, Kelly Fairchild, Chris Tucker, Chris Nelson, Sean Hill, Doug McDonald, Andrew Schier, Barry Richter, Dan Plante, Jason Francisco, Jamie Spencer, Max Williams, Jim Carey
(that run of recruits should have landed *at least* one NCAA title but it goes to what Almington alludes too, playing as a cohesive TEAM, which they certainly did not, they had too much talent maybe. played like there were 5 pucks out there... however where I disagree in part is that these UW teams while they didn't play cohesively were so effing loaded with talent up and down the roster that they won in spite of themselves, their worst record being 24-15-4 (that being the year where all that was left of the core was Spencer/Rafalski/Williams))
point 2 on Sauer, 1992. plain and simple 1992's NCAA final's meltdown had many parents turned off to UW and rival coaches used it against them in recruiting for the next 4-5 years.
the first tell-tale sign of trouble was losing out on Brian Holzinger (future hobey baker winner). later it was guys like matt pettinger and more. Sauer began to lose out on the big-time gets and even the guys that would be great 2nd-line players. consequently they were derailed. Dany Heatley and Steven Reinprecht came in and masked the larger problem of a roster full of 3rd and 4th liners. once they were gone it was the end of Sauer's era
Eaves is in trouble right now. The fans are speaking by not showing up to the games. It's embarrassing in all aspects. There's no reason for this but it is what's happening and right now we have no choice but to sit here and hope that 2 players can turn the season around. to me that underscores what I said last year, there's just a dearth of talent on this team, plain and simple. Gurtholfin analyzed this past weekend far better than I ever could
and to think of the future, what happens if UW doesn't make the NCAA's this year? Zengerle leaves? and UW has 1 season to try and make a run and the turnover happens again and it's huge. Kerdiles will likely go after 2 years and where's the scoring going to come from? A frosh named Grant Besse? he can't shoulder the load by himself.
someone send me some optimism
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
If you taped it, please send a copy to Grand Forks.
On the bright side, I read that Twinkies will likely survive. If they can get past this difficult time, then there's hope for the future of Badger hockey too.
Just don't ask Alvarez to choose.
If you taped it, please send a copy to Grand Forks.
On the bright side, I read that Twinkies will likely survive. If they can get past this difficult time, then there's hope for the future of Badger hockey too.
Just don't ask Alvarez to choose.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
I was ready for a coaching change after last season, that's when it became apparent to me that this coaching staff was completely incapable of maximizing the results with the talent available.
I still don't believe that this team has any less talent then any other team, they just get far less out of that talent then other teams. Why do so many players come to UW highly regarded out of juniors, falls short of expectations while at UW, and then go off to success at the pro level. How can UW have so many pro players off the teams of the last 7+ years and yet have such poor overall results?
On top of that, it is nearly impossible to CONSTANTLY out recruit EVERY single other team. You might be able to do it for a few years, but EVERYONE is after all of the top recruits and eventually you will miss on some players (the NHL draft is full of busts, recruiting is the same way).
Every other team goes through adversity, many of those teams are able to rise above it, UW always seems to wilt under adversity. Sure sometimes adversity will sink a team, but you'd expect them to be able to rise above it given that they have some true leadership to guide the team.
I was ready for a coaching change after last season, that's when it became apparent to me that this coaching staff was completely incapable of maximizing the results with the talent available.
I still don't believe that this team has any less talent then any other team, they just get far less out of that talent then other teams. Why do so many players come to UW highly regarded out of juniors, falls short of expectations while at UW, and then go off to success at the pro level. How can UW have so many pro players off the teams of the last 7+ years and yet have such poor overall results?
On top of that, it is nearly impossible to CONSTANTLY out recruit EVERY single other team. You might be able to do it for a few years, but EVERYONE is after all of the top recruits and eventually you will miss on some players (the NHL draft is full of busts, recruiting is the same way).
Every other team goes through adversity, many of those teams are able to rise above it, UW always seems to wilt under adversity. Sure sometimes adversity will sink a team, but you'd expect them to be able to rise above it given that they have some true leadership to guide the team.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
Alvarez was seen at local groceries hoarding them by the case.
He's fat.
Alvarez was seen at local groceries hoarding them by the case.
He's fat.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
good points all. I know UW can't win every recruiting battle and I also agree that w/some of the NHL talent that's come through madison (Craig Smith, Derek Stepan, Brendan Smith to name a few) it's baffling they haven't put up more wins (although I'd submit as well that given the 3 years prior to 2010 and 2 years after it that run seems more and more like an anomaly)
regardless there don't seem to be answers on the horizon and I wonder how long this continues before Alvarez actually notices the avg to subpar seasons are beginning to hurt attendance and enthusiasm for the team
good points all. I know UW can't win every recruiting battle and I also agree that w/some of the NHL talent that's come through madison (Craig Smith, Derek Stepan, Brendan Smith to name a few) it's baffling they haven't put up more wins (although I'd submit as well that given the 3 years prior to 2010 and 2 years after it that run seems more and more like an anomaly)
regardless there don't seem to be answers on the horizon and I wonder how long this continues before Alvarez actually notices the avg to subpar seasons are beginning to hurt attendance and enthusiasm for the team
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
So what has changed since the Badgers were a more concistant program during the Bob Johnson glory years and the first half of the Sauer era? I proposal several things have.
First...mens hockey position in the heirarchy of Wisconsin Athletics has dramatically changed. Football and basketball have gone from mediocre at best (and more often then not aweful) to a really good product for going on 2 decades. For a long time hockey was argueably the marquee sport and event to go to and Wisconsin was a hockey school. Yes part of that shift has been self inflicted that if hockey were a concistant national contender, it retains some of the luster it has been losing.
Next facilities are an issue (or I should say have been more of an issue before Labahnn was completed). Practicing in a dump like the collosium when the majority of other power programs are practicing on their own home ice surface is an issue. The Kohl Center is as big and bad as just about anyone's barn...but when you spend most of your week in a rat infested hole, that is a difference. One of the downsides of a multipurpose facility at a school like UW is that you are limited in access to your own facility when you have other tenants that are sucessful and higher up the priority chain...aka basketball for a while now. I also think there is a downside to the size of the Kohl...yes the capacity helps you win the attendance title annually, but when you have a downturn or are playing a bad opponent (or fans figure out the upper tank ends are horrific seats to watch hockey from), the place is harder to fill and the aura/atmosphere suffers some. A 12,000 seat hockey only facility would be the ideal, but I understand the economics of why you do a multipurpose facility and why it has to be more like 15K for basketball.
Last, the recruiting has been good, but I think always lacking that extra forward to get over the hump. The dman recruiting has been pretty stellar and we have had some highly regarded forwards to come through...Turris, Geoffrion, Stepan but I think we've often that one guy short. That guy that could give you enough depth that you can split the talent into two pretty potent lines and not allow teams to focus on one primary line. I wonder what might have been in gagner had followed through and shown up and he and Turris decided to stay a couple season. Also producing NHL players does not necessarily translate into sucess in college....having kids roll into Madison for a year and then roll out of town makes it hard to develop continuity and only exasperates some of the problems of the massively unbalanced classes that have been rollercoastering through the program for a while now...it's a feast or famine veteran or incredibly young team with no inbetween.
All that said, the buck stops with Eaves and he is the CEO and responsible for the results and figuring out the solutions and the results have not been on an acceptable level at a place like UW. All the slight warts of UW still outweigh anything most schools can compare with and winning concistantly fixs lots of those blemishes.
So what has changed since the Badgers were a more concistant program during the Bob Johnson glory years and the first half of the Sauer era? I proposal several things have.
First...mens hockey position in the heirarchy of Wisconsin Athletics has dramatically changed. Football and basketball have gone from mediocre at best (and more often then not aweful) to a really good product for going on 2 decades. For a long time hockey was argueably the marquee sport and event to go to and Wisconsin was a hockey school. Yes part of that shift has been self inflicted that if hockey were a concistant national contender, it retains some of the luster it has been losing.
Next facilities are an issue (or I should say have been more of an issue before Labahnn was completed). Practicing in a dump like the collosium when the majority of other power programs are practicing on their own home ice surface is an issue. The Kohl Center is as big and bad as just about anyone's barn...but when you spend most of your week in a rat infested hole, that is a difference. One of the downsides of a multipurpose facility at a school like UW is that you are limited in access to your own facility when you have other tenants that are sucessful and higher up the priority chain...aka basketball for a while now. I also think there is a downside to the size of the Kohl...yes the capacity helps you win the attendance title annually, but when you have a downturn or are playing a bad opponent (or fans figure out the upper tank ends are horrific seats to watch hockey from), the place is harder to fill and the aura/atmosphere suffers some. A 12,000 seat hockey only facility would be the ideal, but I understand the economics of why you do a multipurpose facility and why it has to be more like 15K for basketball.
Last, the recruiting has been good, but I think always lacking that extra forward to get over the hump. The dman recruiting has been pretty stellar and we have had some highly regarded forwards to come through...Turris, Geoffrion, Stepan but I think we've often that one guy short. That guy that could give you enough depth that you can split the talent into two pretty potent lines and not allow teams to focus on one primary line. I wonder what might have been in gagner had followed through and shown up and he and Turris decided to stay a couple season. Also producing NHL players does not necessarily translate into sucess in college....having kids roll into Madison for a year and then roll out of town makes it hard to develop continuity and only exasperates some of the problems of the massively unbalanced classes that have been rollercoastering through the program for a while now...it's a feast or famine veteran or incredibly young team with no inbetween.
All that said, the buck stops with Eaves and he is the CEO and responsible for the results and figuring out the solutions and the results have not been on an acceptable level at a place like UW. All the slight warts of UW still outweigh anything most schools can compare with and winning concistantly fixs lots of those blemishes.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
I wish I could partition the problems between Eaves and how much was the result of the assistant coaches.
The 2008-09 and 2009-10 years correspond to when UW had a peak in that talent (an elite NHL caliber Blueline, significant NHL quality forwards). I will concede that the talent isn't at that same level with this team, but I don't think that this years team (or last years team for that matter) was that much different than the 2004-05 and 2005-06 teams talent wise. These current teams just have a complete lack of any cohesion and leadership. Either it has not been recruited or it has not been cultivated, in either case that shortcoming is the responsibility of Eaves and him alone.
I wish I could partition the problems between Eaves and how much was the result of the assistant coaches.
The 2008-09 and 2009-10 years correspond to when UW had a peak in that talent (an elite NHL caliber Blueline, significant NHL quality forwards). I will concede that the talent isn't at that same level with this team, but I don't think that this years team (or last years team for that matter) was that much different than the 2004-05 and 2005-06 teams talent wise. These current teams just have a complete lack of any cohesion and leadership. Either it has not been recruited or it has not been cultivated, in either case that shortcoming is the responsibility of Eaves and him alone.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
What has constantly amazed me is that players at UW just don't seem to show much offensive improvement over their time at UW. They may make incromental improvements from year to year, but never seem to have that "breakout" season where they can become an offensive threat. Since once they leave UW they start RACKING up the points in the ECHL and AHL it's clear that they are improving, implying that it is the system that UW wants to run that is the problem. A coach that is unable to adapt to his changing personel isn't going to be successful on a consistent basis.
What has constantly amazed me is that players at UW just don't seem to show much offensive improvement over their time at UW. They may make incromental improvements from year to year, but never seem to have that "breakout" season where they can become an offensive threat. Since once they leave UW they start RACKING up the points in the ECHL and AHL it's clear that they are improving, implying that it is the system that UW wants to run that is the problem. A coach that is unable to adapt to his changing personel isn't going to be successful on a consistent basis.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
You make a lot of valid points.
I think it comes down to what Almington references in whether Eaves is maximizing what he does have. A huge part of his job is to assemble the parts that he has into a cohesive team.
Whether he assembles these during the recruiting process or once they're on campus, his success is based upon how effective he can put together a team.
Can he get guys to buy into different roles? If not, should he be recruiting other people or different types of players for those roles?
Can he identify and nurture leaders and captains? Can he step back and let those leaders lead?
Can he identify and/or develop scorers? Sure would love to see a few one dimensional, defensive liability, snipers sprinkled in with our grinders. Someone's gotta fricken' score at some point.
Can he keep a coaching staff together and when folks do leave, can he replace them with people who can actually do the job?
Lots of questions and at this point, it appears that he can't do any of that.
You make a lot of valid points.
I think it comes down to what Almington references in whether Eaves is maximizing what he does have. A huge part of his job is to assemble the parts that he has into a cohesive team.
Whether he assembles these during the recruiting process or once they're on campus, his success is based upon how effective he can put together a team.
Can he get guys to buy into different roles? If not, should he be recruiting other people or different types of players for those roles?
Can he identify and nurture leaders and captains? Can he step back and let those leaders lead?
Can he identify and/or develop scorers? Sure would love to see a few one dimensional, defensive liability, snipers sprinkled in with our grinders. Someone's gotta fricken' score at some point.
Can he keep a coaching staff together and when folks do leave, can he replace them with people who can actually do the job?
Lots of questions and at this point, it appears that he can't do any of that.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
To be fair, Eaves is doing every thing you mentioned, he's just not doing all of them at a consistanly high level.
Given the resources at UW, I'd think that most coaches could deliver a 0.500 or better most years. I believe that UW shouldn't be content with an average coach who delivers average results.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
It is quite remarkable to think of how well we recruit and how well they perform at the next level. Even with a lot of great individual seasons (one Hobey winner, a few Hobey-worthy, plenty of All Americans), there's very little to show for it.
It is quite remarkable to think of how well we recruit and how well they perform at the next level. Even with a lot of great individual seasons (one Hobey winner, a few Hobey-worthy, plenty of All Americans), there's very little to show for it.
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
I think this may be one of the critical components that ends being the missing ingredient...offensively elite forwards. I think Eaves has (unfairly a little bit) gotten the label of traping/defensive minded coach that has made it harder to bring in the elite scorers. And I firmly believe scorers are not developed in as much as it is a skill some guys have and other just don't. I had hoped Turris and Gagner would have broken the stereotype Eaves has been subject to an that they may have opened up other elite offensive guys to come...but alas Gagner never made it on campus and Turris got some really bad advise and left at least a year earlier then he should have.
I think this may be one of the critical components that ends being the missing ingredient...offensively elite forwards. I think Eaves has (unfairly a little bit) gotten the label of traping/defensive minded coach that has made it harder to bring in the elite scorers. And I firmly believe scorers are not developed in as much as it is a skill some guys have and other just don't. I had hoped Turris and Gagner would have broken the stereotype Eaves has been subject to an that they may have opened up other elite offensive guys to come...but alas Gagner never made it on campus and Turris got some really bad advise and left at least a year earlier then he should have.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
I agree. Heatley was a gifted scorer as was Jason Zent or whomever else you want to put on that list, Parise at Nodak, whatever. Eaves' almost manic attention to defense I think scares the elite forwards away.
and it sure sounds like the football team doesn't it? no way you'll get an elite quarterback to Madison when you run Montee Ball or whomever else 4,356 times per game.
the B10 hockey guys mentioned Minnesota as the more offensively creative team. well which team would Heater want to go to? If he had his choice today I bet it's Minnesota.
for the first couple of years I thought the trap was a way to make games closer with inferior talent. after that i thought Eaves would ditch it once he had Robbie Earl and Pavelski playing together at high levels. that didn't happen.
and what it's boiled down to is this, he might get a great forward once every two or three years or thereabouts (or the great forward flying under the radar) but you need a great forward like a pavelski or earl coming in EVERY year, that way you've generally got two on the team at any one time and are prepared if one bolts you've got one coming in the following year. if one doesn't bolt by jr year in that scenario you've suddenly got 3 on the roster and look out!
having the leading point getter in UW history as coach and Shuchuk an 80-point scorer as a senior as assistant and these guys aren't consistently landing high-end forwards is baffling...it MUST be the whole trap stigma that has really saddled them.
I agree. Heatley was a gifted scorer as was Jason Zent or whomever else you want to put on that list, Parise at Nodak, whatever. Eaves' almost manic attention to defense I think scares the elite forwards away.
and it sure sounds like the football team doesn't it? no way you'll get an elite quarterback to Madison when you run Montee Ball or whomever else 4,356 times per game.
the B10 hockey guys mentioned Minnesota as the more offensively creative team. well which team would Heater want to go to? If he had his choice today I bet it's Minnesota.
for the first couple of years I thought the trap was a way to make games closer with inferior talent. after that i thought Eaves would ditch it once he had Robbie Earl and Pavelski playing together at high levels. that didn't happen.
and what it's boiled down to is this, he might get a great forward once every two or three years or thereabouts (or the great forward flying under the radar) but you need a great forward like a pavelski or earl coming in EVERY year, that way you've generally got two on the team at any one time and are prepared if one bolts you've got one coming in the following year. if one doesn't bolt by jr year in that scenario you've suddenly got 3 on the roster and look out!
having the leading point getter in UW history as coach and Shuchuk an 80-point scorer as a senior as assistant and these guys aren't consistently landing high-end forwards is baffling...it MUST be the whole trap stigma that has really saddled them.
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Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
I'm not sure that the trap is the problem, but an overall system that is excessively rigid that eliminates creativity overall by forcing players to think to much about on-ice position and not allow the goal scorers instinct to take control. Once players leave UW they have fantastic on-ice awareness and can really excel once that oppressive yoke is removed and they are given more freedome by the new coach.
My experience is that ears system is only as open to the level that he can trust he has in the bottom of the depth chart. I think that it would be a great system at a professional level where they can work on it year round, but it is always going to have issues at the college level with limited contact for half the year and about 30% of your regular lineup turns over every year.
Chuck Schwartz
New member
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W
IMO problem isn't grabbing an elite forward for every class, as I think you could go back through Eaves classes and (for the most part) say he brought at least one in. I think the problem is that he's grabbing too many secondary forwards with no offensive upside. He's had entirely too many misses on the offensive end lately and it's cost them. I obviously understand the need for balance in a lineup, you can't have 12 goal scorers. That said, the ratio of guys who can put the puck in the net to the guys that can play both ways, bring energy, etc. is trending in the wrong direction.
2012: Kerdiles, Zulinick?
2011:
2010: Zengerle
2009: C. Smith
2008: Stepan
2007: Turris (Gagner)
2006: Geoffrion
2005: Skille
2004: Pavelski
2003: Earl
FWIW, Eaves 2013 recruiting class is on pace to be (BY FAR) the worst of his tenure. And it's not even close.
IMO problem isn't grabbing an elite forward for every class, as I think you could go back through Eaves classes and (for the most part) say he brought at least one in. I think the problem is that he's grabbing too many secondary forwards with no offensive upside. He's had entirely too many misses on the offensive end lately and it's cost them. I obviously understand the need for balance in a lineup, you can't have 12 goal scorers. That said, the ratio of guys who can put the puck in the net to the guys that can play both ways, bring energy, etc. is trending in the wrong direction.
2012: Kerdiles, Zulinick?
2011:
2010: Zengerle
2009: C. Smith
2008: Stepan
2007: Turris (Gagner)
2006: Geoffrion
2005: Skille
2004: Pavelski
2003: Earl
FWIW, Eaves 2013 recruiting class is on pace to be (BY FAR) the worst of his tenure. And it's not even close.
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