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Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
- Thread starter cooperalls
- Start date
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
This is my pet peeve over the situation; it is a DII problem, with DIII acting as the enabler. Bruce and the rest of DIII need to realize that there are enough DIII issues to keep them busy, and that - at this point - best motivate the DII schools by issuing an ultimatum: Tell the DII's to form a committee with the power to make changes and have that committee submit proposals to DIII, given them a finite time frame, and stand by it.
This is my pet peeve over the situation; it is a DII problem, with DIII acting as the enabler. Bruce and the rest of DIII need to realize that there are enough DIII issues to keep them busy, and that - at this point - best motivate the DII schools by issuing an ultimatum: Tell the DII's to form a committee with the power to make changes and have that committee submit proposals to DIII, given them a finite time frame, and stand by it.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Exactly, given that most of them have won the D1 NCAA's before, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan, and Lake Superior State, I would have to think that their pride would be too much to swallow to go down to a D3/D2 level in any form. When you're used to playing the Michigans and the Minnesota's of the College hockey world, the idea of playing Adrian or St. Norberts just isn't that exciting.
Sadly, no. What is much more likely to happen is that those Michigan D-II teams that used to play in D-I are going to go away completely. And my school is likely to be one of them.
Exactly, given that most of them have won the D1 NCAA's before, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan, and Lake Superior State, I would have to think that their pride would be too much to swallow to go down to a D3/D2 level in any form. When you're used to playing the Michigans and the Minnesota's of the College hockey world, the idea of playing Adrian or St. Norberts just isn't that exciting.
Hammer
We'll be back.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
I would think that Lake and Ferris are in real trouble after today, and maybe Tech could be dead, too. I don't know about Western or NMU. Maybe NMU has a shot if the CCHA completely tanks and goes the way of the CHA. They might jump to a revamped WCHA.
The bottom line is, these schools are going to have no desire to go D-III. The Michigan D-II teams are right in the MCHA footprint. I'm not sure the MCHA wants any part of them. LSSU, Ferris and even MTU, given the talent and school sizes (Ferris is over 13K now) and facilities would make the current Adrian-Concordia games look like tight barnburners.
A D-II expansion among the D-III teams is not in the cards.
I would think that Lake and Ferris are in real trouble after today, and maybe Tech could be dead, too. I don't know about Western or NMU. Maybe NMU has a shot if the CCHA completely tanks and goes the way of the CHA. They might jump to a revamped WCHA.
The bottom line is, these schools are going to have no desire to go D-III. The Michigan D-II teams are right in the MCHA footprint. I'm not sure the MCHA wants any part of them. LSSU, Ferris and even MTU, given the talent and school sizes (Ferris is over 13K now) and facilities would make the current Adrian-Concordia games look like tight barnburners.
A D-II expansion among the D-III teams is not in the cards.
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Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
A total aside, FWIW 31 years ago I had a choice of taking a job at Ferris or at Norwich and I picked Norwich. What does this add to the discussion, nothing, but it's interesting to me, anyway
A total aside, FWIW 31 years ago I had a choice of taking a job at Ferris or at Norwich and I picked Norwich. What does this add to the discussion, nothing, but it's interesting to me, anyway
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Other than it makes you old enough to have been one of Hammer's professors.
A total aside, FWIW 31 years ago I had a choice of taking a job at Ferris or at Norwich and I picked Norwich. What does this add to the discussion, nothing, but it's interesting to me, anyway
Other than it makes you old enough to have been one of Hammer's professors.
Hammer
We'll be back.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Interesting. I had a helluva stats professor at Ferris in the mid-90's. My roommate's stats professor died in the middle of the same semester.
A total aside, FWIW 31 years ago I had a choice of taking a job at Ferris or at Norwich and I picked Norwich. What does this add to the discussion, nothing, but it's interesting to me, anyway
Interesting. I had a helluva stats professor at Ferris in the mid-90's. My roommate's stats professor died in the middle of the same semester.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Probably one or the other of those took the position I passed up - small world.
Probably one or the other of those took the position I passed up - small world.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
I'm not saying for the Midwest D-II's to fall back to D-III, but if there are enough of them (6), then they have enough for a conference that would be eligible for a NCC in D-II/III, assuming that there is some movement towards that.
But, as hawkhockey and others have said, the D-II's have to get off their tookases and become part of the solution and not waiting for Bruce and the D-III'ers to come down from Mount Sinai.
Here are the schools on the "bubble":
Northeast 10
American International College
Assumption College
Bentley University
Frankln Pierce University
Merrimack College
Saint Anselm College
Saint Michael's College
Southern New Hampshire University
Stonehill College
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Northern Sun
Bemidji State University
Minnesota State University, Mankato
St. Cloud State University
University of Minnesota Duluth
GLIAC
Ferris State University
Lake Superior State University
Michigan Technological University
Northern Michigan University
Other
Mercyhurst College Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference
University of Alabama in Huntsville Gulf South Conference
University of Alaska Anchorage Great Northwest Athletic Conference
University of Alaska Fairbanks Great Northwest Athletic Conference
University of Nebraska at Omaha Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletics Conference
Italics plays a D-III schedule
I'm not saying for the Midwest D-II's to fall back to D-III, but if there are enough of them (6), then they have enough for a conference that would be eligible for a NCC in D-II/III, assuming that there is some movement towards that.
But, as hawkhockey and others have said, the D-II's have to get off their tookases and become part of the solution and not waiting for Bruce and the D-III'ers to come down from Mount Sinai.
Here are the schools on the "bubble":
Northeast 10
American International College
Assumption College
Bentley University
Frankln Pierce University
Merrimack College
Saint Anselm College
Saint Michael's College
Southern New Hampshire University
Stonehill College
University of Massachusetts Lowell
Northern Sun
Bemidji State University
Minnesota State University, Mankato
St. Cloud State University
University of Minnesota Duluth
GLIAC
Ferris State University
Lake Superior State University
Michigan Technological University
Northern Michigan University
Other
Mercyhurst College Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference
University of Alabama in Huntsville Gulf South Conference
University of Alaska Anchorage Great Northwest Athletic Conference
University of Alaska Fairbanks Great Northwest Athletic Conference
University of Nebraska at Omaha Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletics Conference
Italics plays a D-III schedule
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The Real Georgia Peach
Registered User
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Did you forget St. Mike's in the NE10? Or am I missing something?
Did you forget St. Mike's in the NE10? Or am I missing something?
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Maybe he left St. Mike's out of the "bubble" because they're the only ones who've actually talked about going DIII in all sports, and so aren't just waiting for the DIIIers to help...
...or maybe he just forgot them
Did you forget St. Mike's in the NE10? Or am I missing something?
Maybe he left St. Mike's out of the "bubble" because they're the only ones who've actually talked about going DIII in all sports, and so aren't just waiting for the DIIIers to help...
...or maybe he just forgot them
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
One or the other of those two
Maybe he left St. Mike's out of the "bubble" because they're the only ones who've actually talked about going DIII in all sports, and so aren't just waiting for the DIIIers to help...
...or maybe he just forgot them
One or the other of those two
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
My apologies to the Earle clan.
Actually I downloaded a list of D-II hockey playing schools from the NCAA. In the clean-up they got deleted.One or the other of those two
My apologies to the Earle clan.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
The ECAC is the organization which would/will/has issue an ultimatum.
The ECAC is the organization which would/will/has issue an ultimatum.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
sbkbghockey
Registered User
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
I'm no expert on the DII/DIII situation but this proposed rule has been tossed around on a few other threads. It is proposed to start in Aug 2011.
The practice of allowing schools to sponsor a single sport in a different division would be eliminated, except in sports where no championship is conducted in its division. Divisions II and III schools currently taking advantage of this opportunity would not affected unless they fail to conduct the sport in Division I for any ensuing year.
by this, any of the DII's that want to get out of the DII/DIII mess could play up in DI since there is no division II championship. Note: it prevents any new RITs or CCs from playing up in DI since DIII has a championship.
I'm no expert on the DII/DIII situation but this proposed rule has been tossed around on a few other threads. It is proposed to start in Aug 2011.
The practice of allowing schools to sponsor a single sport in a different division would be eliminated, except in sports where no championship is conducted in its division. Divisions II and III schools currently taking advantage of this opportunity would not affected unless they fail to conduct the sport in Division I for any ensuing year.
by this, any of the DII's that want to get out of the DII/DIII mess could play up in DI since there is no division II championship. Note: it prevents any new RITs or CCs from playing up in DI since DIII has a championship.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
As noted, there are two groups of DII schools, those playing up and those playing down. For the purposes of this thread, the concern is only of those playing down. The proposal you mentioned does offer a carrot to those schools playing up, but for those playing down, it is for all practical purposes useless. I suspect the proposal is the result of those schools playing up (note the proposal is not exclusive to hockey) making an effort to offer their student/athletes a complete collegiate career experience (i.e. the potential to participate in a championship). Related to this, is the problem I have with the NCAA infractions committee including “punishments” to schools that prevent them from participating in championships, when none of the offenders remain with the program, vacating illegitimately obtained wins, titles, etc makes total sense, punishing student/athletes that had never gained anything from the misdeeds is IMO, a misdeed in and of itself. It is however, the willingness and ability of the NCAA to impose penalties on teams utilizing unfair practices that I believe the NCAA should issue an ultimatum requiring schools to come up with a way, within a reasonable time frame, that all their student athletes get to enjoy the all benefits of their commitment to their sport.
As noted, there are two groups of DII schools, those playing up and those playing down. For the purposes of this thread, the concern is only of those playing down. The proposal you mentioned does offer a carrot to those schools playing up, but for those playing down, it is for all practical purposes useless. I suspect the proposal is the result of those schools playing up (note the proposal is not exclusive to hockey) making an effort to offer their student/athletes a complete collegiate career experience (i.e. the potential to participate in a championship). Related to this, is the problem I have with the NCAA infractions committee including “punishments” to schools that prevent them from participating in championships, when none of the offenders remain with the program, vacating illegitimately obtained wins, titles, etc makes total sense, punishing student/athletes that had never gained anything from the misdeeds is IMO, a misdeed in and of itself. It is however, the willingness and ability of the NCAA to impose penalties on teams utilizing unfair practices that I believe the NCAA should issue an ultimatum requiring schools to come up with a way, within a reasonable time frame, that all their student athletes get to enjoy the all benefits of their commitment to their sport.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Since playing up is permitted for the D-I/II women's championship, I wonder if it would still be OK for the Merrimacks of this world to play up if we get a D-II/III men's championship?
But the fun begins this week down on Cape Cod with the ECAC convention. Each hockey league will be having meetings and I HOPE (Charlie??) that we get some sort of announcements to chase away the rumors.
But could you imagine the NCAA ordering USC and the PAC-10 to refund all the money they earned from the BCS bowls while ineligible players were playing??As noted, there are two groups of DII schools, those playing up and those playing down. For the purposes of this thread, the concern is only of those playing down. The proposal you mentioned does offer a carrot to those schools playing up, but for those playing down, it is for all practical purposes useless. I suspect the proposal is the result of those schools playing up (note the proposal is not exclusive to hockey) making an effort to offer their student/athletes a complete collegiate career experience (i.e. the potential to participate in a championship). Related to this, is the problem I have with the NCAA infractions committee including “punishments” to schools that prevent them from participating in championships, when none of the offenders remain with the program, vacating illegitimately obtained wins, titles, etc makes total sense, punishing student/athletes that had never gained anything from the misdeeds is IMO, a misdeed in and of itself. It is however, the willingness and ability of the NCAA to impose penalties on teams utilizing unfair practices that I believe the NCAA should issue an ultimatum requiring schools to come up with a way, within a reasonable time frame, that all their student athletes get to enjoy the all benefits of their commitment to their sport.
Since playing up is permitted for the D-I/II women's championship, I wonder if it would still be OK for the Merrimacks of this world to play up if we get a D-II/III men's championship?
But the fun begins this week down on Cape Cod with the ECAC convention. Each hockey league will be having meetings and I HOPE (Charlie??) that we get some sort of announcements to chase away the rumors.
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
Doing so might cause the leagues to actually take action. The NCAA is reluctant to punish the "cash cows" in any meaningful way. The last time they really punished a program in a meaningful way was the Death Penalty for SMU Football.
The question would be, as always, what is best for the DI establishment. The necessity of nurturing the programs at schools other that DIA (or whatever they call it this year) football schools seems to be lost on the organization.
I hope there is a resolution to all of this stuff and that it is fair to all involved. That and I can't wait for news out of the pink fluffy bunny sessions
Doing so might cause the leagues to actually take action. The NCAA is reluctant to punish the "cash cows" in any meaningful way. The last time they really punished a program in a meaningful way was the Death Penalty for SMU Football.
The question would be, as always, what is best for the DI establishment. The necessity of nurturing the programs at schools other that DIA (or whatever they call it this year) football schools seems to be lost on the organization.
I hope there is a resolution to all of this stuff and that it is fair to all involved. That and I can't wait for news out of the pink fluffy bunny sessions
hawkhockey
Registered User
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?
If the games for DII schols would/could count in a DII/III format, then a potential unintended consequence is that Merrimack and AIC might drop down from DI to play in a non scholarship league.then the NE 10 could have their own league and possisibility an AQ.Lowell will not drop down and it is highly unlikely that Bentley would also join as it is pretty clear, that they want to follow Bryant to DI in all sports
If the games for DII schols would/could count in a DII/III format, then a potential unintended consequence is that Merrimack and AIC might drop down from DI to play in a non scholarship league.then the NE 10 could have their own league and possisibility an AQ.Lowell will not drop down and it is highly unlikely that Bentley would also join as it is pretty clear, that they want to follow Bryant to DI in all sports