Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I will check it out, but it may be semantics as academic ability needs to be high to get into D 2 schools. Maybe it is a way of freeing up some academic scholarship money for non-sports yet highly qualified candidates. Point being that at 40,000 +++ D 2 schools would not have many attending let alone playing sports if they weren't given some significant consideration.

Definitely going to check into the numbers, as I was lead to believe differently?!
Going to get some more consideration or relocate.

DII schools are permitted to give non-need based athletic scholarships, just not as many as DI schools. The NE10 schools currently playing DIII hockey do not give scholarships for hockey, but DII rules permit them.

By agreement with the ECAC East, St. Mike's and St. Anselm's don't. By agreement with the ECAC NE, the other 4 didn't and apparently haven't moved to do so. The suggestion that the limit be set to 0 for hockey was made to make a National Collegiate Championship for DII/DIII a possibility.

The NCAA just passed rules that said that in case of a National Collegiate Championship for a sport, all schools would adhere to the financial aid rules for their own division, not (as formerly constituted) with those of the majority of the schools sponsoring the sport. In other words, if there were an NCC with current scholarship rules, the 6 DII programs could have scholarships and nobody else could. Clearly DIII would never agree to that arrangement, because, at least theoretically a DII program that is now playing DI could move back to DII and dominate a DII/DIII NCC

 

[passthepuck]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

DII schools are permitted to give non-need based athletic scholarships, just not as many as DI schools. The NE10 schools currently playing DIII hockey do not give scholarships for hockey, but DII rules permit them.

By agreement with the ECAC East, St. Mike's and St. Anselm's don't. By agreement with the ECAC NE, the other 4 didn't and apparently haven't moved to do so. The suggestion that the limit be set to 0 for hockey was made to make a National Collegiate Championship for DII/DIII a possibility.

The NCAA just passed rules that said that in case of a National Collegiate Championship for a sport, all schools would adhere to the financial aid rules for their own division, not (as formerly constituted) with those of the majority of the schools sponsoring the sport. In other words, if there were an NCC with current scholarship rules, the 6 DII programs could have scholarships and nobody else could. Clearly DIII would never agree to that arrangement, because, at least theoretically a DII program that is now playing DI could move back to DII and dominate a DII/DIII NCC

Theory would never become practice, as only one sport gets athletic scholarships per school and it sure isn't hockey. If you rank the sports played at these schools it becomes obvious that hockey is sufficiently far down the list, most preferring basketball or football or even soccer. The practice is already in place and there is no way that hockey players will ever get a red cent or a plugged nickle for that matter of athletic scholarship money.

Once again a red herring argument. There is no way that this issue has or ever will have any bearing on hockey. Consequently it cannot be brought to bear with any efficacy on the matter of perenially disallowing D 2 schools from rightfully getting a crack at playing in a championship. The even playing field requested and posited as a requirement before D 3 would presumably allow such a change already exists. One sport and one sport only at the schools in question gets consideration and that will never change in theory and least of all in practice. Once again, logic alone dictates it will never be hockey.

Ergo since the main argument against D 2 schools being allowed to compete for a spot in the divisional championships, based on the myth of widespread athletic scholarship money being available to hockey, despite the fact that they will never achieve it based on record, is now completely deconstructed, null, void and found baseless in fact. They will have to come up with another reason.

Hey, if I know this, so do they. Sounds more like a case of wanting to exclude for the sake of it, as no other logical reason now remains. May well be a form of prejudice and a human rights issue. To disallow opportunity based on no other factor than the fact that a school is D 2 is both tautological logic and an extreme example of un-American bias.

Once again, no hockey players get a cent of anything in the way of an athletic scholarship in the D 2. They had to choose a single sport and it wasn't hockey. Funds are limited to supporting that one sport, if any. There is no gold mine, these schools cannot access their heritage fund for such matters and rich alumni don't give money to this as it is not a form of accepted gift giving.

So I ask you what is the issue? Well you say it could still happen based on existing D 2 policy. The D 2 people then could certainly sign off on that saying that until the end of time, no hockey players will ever have enough to eat while going to school by virtue of ever having a chance at an athletic scholarship while playing hockey, just as is the case now for many. But that would take A talking to B and perhaps the D 2 schools have no interest in risking incuring the additional expense of involving themselves in a playoffs in the off chance they might qualify. This would be on top of the Ne - 10 championship which based on ability and record seems more appropriate for them anyway.

So I think there is something else driving this argument and it is open to speculation.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Theory would never become practice, as only one sport gets athletic scholarships per school and it sure isn't hockey.

This is not true. DII schools can offer scholarships in as many sports as they wish. There are limits in each sport. Some schools offer scholarships only in a single sport.

From the NCAA website

Division II

Number of required sports: Division II programs must offer at least 10 sports (at least five for men and five for women, or four for men and six for women). The institution must sponsor at least two team sports for each gender. The school also must have participating male and female teams or participants in the fall, winter and spring seasons, and must have at least the minimum number of participants and contests for each sport.

Scheduling: Each Division II program must play a minimum number of contests against Division II opponents. The minimums vary by sport.

Financial aid: Division II institutions must offer a minimum amount of financial aid but may not exceed established maximums. Financial aid equivalencies are common in all Division II sports.

Total Division II membership: 288 institutions.

Public/private: In Division II, 53 percent of the members are public institutions; 47 percent are private.

The problem with DII hockey lies in the NCAA not allowing schools to classify sports down and applying a one-size-fits-all philosophy to their regulations, despite the fact that only 6 schools play hockey at the DII level.

Many of us think there needs to be a solution

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

This is not true. DII schools can offer scholarships in as many sports as they wish. There are limits in each sport. Some schools offer scholarships only in a single sport.

From the NCAA website


The problem with DII hockey lies in the NCAA not allowing schools to classify sports down and applying a one-size-fits-all philosophy to their regulations, despite the fact that only 6 schools play hockey at the DII level.

Many of us think there needs to be a solution.

Exactly - I for one, and I believe joecct feel that the inherent advantages that hockey players attending DII schools have does not provide them with a significant enough advantage as to create an uneven playing field. However, in order for the DII schools to be taken seriously by the DIII schools, they must be willing to commit to official policy, that their hockey programs will to the fullest extent reasonably possible adhere to DIII rules - including banning athletic scholarships for hockey players.

Note the idea of DII being theoretically eligible for the DI championships is ludicrous - while the DII programs as currently administered do not offer a significant advantage over the DIII programs, the DI programs, especially the non-Atlantic Hockey Conference teams, have a huge, insurmountable advantage over the DII schools.

Also, IMO, DII schools under the current system actually have a material DISADVANTAGE compared to the DIII schools, in that their inability to offer potential recruits a chance at a championship certainly has a significant impact on their recruiting.

In the end, as I’ve stated previously, this is not a DIII problem (other than impacting some school’s scheduling and subsequently travel costs). It is a DII problem, and the DII needs to address it, the DIII should not be “enabling” the DII to ignore their situation.

 

[passthepuck]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Thanks for the info. Policy is binding and that is what it would require. I find it interesting that D 2 schools can give athletic scholarships in as many sports as they wish. My experiience is that they give none to hockey anyway. Therefor they should not have a problem making their practice their policy. I had been led to believe that they chose a higher profile sport and gave all the athletic scholarship money to that program. I have a few questions now for the powers that be as to why that might be the case. Wouldn't it make more sense to give the best athletes in a variety of sports some consideration rather than fully funding one program?

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Thanks for the info. Policy is binding and that is what it would require. I find it interesting that D 2 schools can give athletic scholarships in as many sports as they wish. My experiience is that they give none to hockey anyway. Therefor they should not have a problem making their practice their policy. I had been led to believe that they chose a higher profile sport and gave all the athletic scholarship money to that program. I have a few questions now for the powers that be as to why that might be the case. Wouldn't it make more sense to give the best athletes in a variety of sports some consideration rather than fully funding one program?

That's entirely up to the school and what their philosophy of resource allocation is. Most of the NE 10 hockey schools are basketball centric schools.

 

[dreamer6]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

DII schools are permitted to give non-need based athletic scholarships, just not as many as DI schools. The NE10 schools currently playing DIII hockey do not give scholarships for hockey, but DII rules permit them.

By agreement with the ECAC East, St. Mike's and St. Anselm's don't.

Is the sole reason St. A's & St. Mike's do not give scholarships for hockey because of the agreement? I assume not since they only give scholarships for basketball, but I am curious.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I'm wondering if/when Penn State makes the jump to D-I and the subsequent formation of the Big 10 Hockey Conference (rumored to be 2011/12 and 2012/13 respectively), we may see some D-II/III schools decide that the pot is too rich for them and drop down/back??

Based on proposed NCAA legislation once a play-up school drops out of D-I, they can never go back.

It is imperative that D-II/III start working out a solution and be proactive in a solution, rather than reactive.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Is the sole reason St. A's & St. Mike's do not give scholarships for hockey because of the agreement? I assume not since they only give scholarships for basketball, but I am curious.

I know for St. Mike's this is not the reason - they just don't want to fund anything beyond BBall, and there are recurrent rumors that they are considering reclassifying to DIII.

 

[Jason.Auckland]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I know for St. Mike's this is not the reason - they just don't want to fund anything beyond BBall, and there are recurrent rumors that they are considering reclassifying to DIII.

You've got to imagine with the economy the way it is, no school wants to put up more funding then they have in recent years. I don't think anyone is making major jumps or shifting conferences right now. Some schools here are thinking about trimming back funding on various sports.

No one is getting out of limbo any time soon. no one

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Based on proposed NCAA legislation once a play-up school drops out of D-I, they can never go back.

The attitude of the NCAA being, of course, if you aren't glamorous enough for our taste we want you gone. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, but if it does you can pick yourself up because you're to grimy for me to touch.

I think that the NCAA should encourage rather than discourage "playing up." Little things, like let them share in the revenue, let them play up in Basketball if they want. The Cinderella scenario sells tickets. They are just afraid that these pantywaist little schools might steal revenue from the deserving schools like Penn State and Michigan

It is imperative that D-II/III start working out a solution and be proactive in a solution, rather than reactive.

As soon as a school like UAH has to move back there is going to be serious ramifications in the DII/DIII world.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I need some help with the inherent advantages of DII hockey schools.
Allowed to provide athletic scholarships,all DII schools playing in the ECAC do not, and have not for years,awarded athletic hockey scholarships.
the current size of current DII endowments do not allow for the fully funding of demonstrated financial aid.as NESCAC can.
the schools for the most part do not accept everyone/athletes that apply and judging from their retention rates,everyone that applies does not stay,including athletes
If anyone has an advantage in DIII hockey it is the NESCAC's.
Good to excellent facilities,the ability to recruit and admit almost anyone they really want,foreign aid for students, the ability to FULLY fund any student that is accepted to school and the resources necessary and funded to offer remedial academic help to any matriculatinfg student/athlete.
So i wish people would stop trying to show what an unfair advantage DII schools have and deal with facts,they play by the rules and are just looking to play the game with teams that ,in some cases, they have played against for 40 years.
Help me with this, if DII's have such a great advantage,how come they don't win more games?

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I need some help with the inherent advantages of DII hockey schools.
Allowed to provide athletic scholarships,all DII schools playing in the ECAC do not, and have not for years,awarded athletic hockey scholarships.
the current size of current DII endowments do not allow for the fully funding of demonstrated financial aid.as NESCAC can.
the schools for the most part do not accept everyone/athletes that apply and judging from their retention rates,everyone that applies does not stay,including athletes
If anyone has an advantage in DIII hockey it is the NESCAC's.
Good to excellent facilities,the ability to recruit and admit almost anyone they really want,foreign aid for students, the ability to FULLY fund any student that is accepted to school and the resources necessary and funded to offer remedial academic help to any matriculatinfg student/athlete.
So i wish people would stop trying to show what an unfair advantage DII schools have and deal with facts,they play by the rules and are just looking to play the game with teams that ,in some cases, they have played against for 40 years.
Help me with this, if DII's have such a great advantage,how come they don't win more games?

I absolutely agree that the inherent advantage of a DII program is less than the inherent advantage of many of the DIII schools by virtue of their financial well being, including their endowments. The DII's inherent advantage is essentially a potentially better Athletic Department by virtue of the school choosing a DII stance, even if primarily for a single sport (such as basketball or football). The rational being, if they are choosing to be DII, then hopefully they are committing more funds to training facilities, athletic department support/staff, media coverage (name recognition) etc. That said, I think many of the NESCAC have both potential and in many cases do have more advantages over the DII's. The biggest problem facing the DII hockey programs is they are treated as the unwanted step children.

IMO, a plan to allow the DII programs to participate at par with the DIII programs, with the games counting toward the tournament rankings as well as allowing the potential participation in the tournament could be worked out, BUT the DII schools would need to take the lead and ask the DIII what would be required of them.

 

[neumyer]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

the current size of current DII endowments do not allow for the fully funding of demonstrated financial aid.as NESCAC can.
the schools for the most part do not accept everyone/athletes that apply and judging from their retention rates,everyone that applies does not stay,including athletes
If anyone has an advantage in DIII hockey it is the NESCAC's.
Good to excellent facilities,the ability to recruit and admit almost anyone they really want,foreign aid for students, the ability to FULLY fund any student that is accepted to school and the resources necessary and funded to offer remedial academic help to any matriculatinfg student/athlete.

Every advantage comes with disadvantages, too. For the most part, many hockey players that want to come to a NESCAC school don't have the grades nor the SATs, so they don't get in. Only a very few slots can get a TIP. So a lot of top notch talent ends up at other schools that have lower grade point and SAT requirements. It is true, though, that NESCAC would have an advantage with an excellent hockey player that also is an excellent student if they are not D1 material due to size or other considerations. And if the student is admitted and has wealthy parents, need blind admissions may dictate they get no financial aid.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

if parents are wealthy, then financial aid is not,nor should it be a financial issue.Anecdotally,a prep school senior applied to two hockey schools;one NESCAC one ECACE.Accepted to both,once accepted to the NESCAC,he knew that they would FULLY fund his need(parents were not wealthy),at the ECACE school they could give him an unofficial approximate of aid but told him that it probably would not be all he needed as they gap everyone.
The NESCAC coach told him that he needed an answer in two days or he would recruit another player for his "spot".
after two days the student accepted the offer to Connecticut College.
So the advantage to me in this case is pretty clear

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

almost forgot one other DII "advantage".If a player spends two years in the juniors or one prep and one junior after high school, then he would only have 3 years of eligibility in college as opposed to 4 years in DI or DIII.This a DII rule that effects hockey players at a DII school.With advantages like this ,how do those schools lose a game!

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

almost forgot one other DII "advantage".If a player spends two years in the juniors or one prep and one junior after high school, then he would only have 3 years of eligibility in college as opposed to 4 years in DI or DIII.This a DII rule that effects hockey players at a DII school.With advantages like this ,how do those schools lose a game!

Just to bust on you, it affects hockey players. If it effected hockey players, it would cause them, and if there was something to cause DII hockey players, it would be a huge advantage

(Just my pet peeve - as a verb, affect means influence, effect means cause)

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

thank you for the correction!I must be getting a little light headed in this heat.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

thank you for the correction!I must be getting a little light headed in this heat.

No sweat. Since its a little too early for lice infestation, I've got to put my nit picking skills to some use

For what it's worth I'd like to see a solution for the DIIs - the current situation is irrational. College hockey needs to be promoted at all levels, not inhibited

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

No sweat. Since its a little too early for lice infestation, I've got to put my nit picking skills to some use

For what it's worth I'd like to see a solution for the DIIs - the current situation is irrational. College hockey needs to be promoted at all levels, not inhibited

irrational = √DII