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Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Just to bust on you, it affects hockey players. If it effected hockey players, it would cause them, and if there was something to cause DII hockey players, it would be a huge advantage :D :D :D

(Just my pet peeve - as a verb, affect means influence, effect means cause)

"If there were something": hypothetical situations contrary to the real-life present use the subjunctive mood. :)
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

"If there were something": hypothetical situations contrary to the real-life present use the subjunctive mood. :)
:mad: ouch, you got me. Hey I'm just a math guy who doesn't like bad grammar. Actually my wife is a good grammar and I'm a good grampar :D
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

if parents are wealthy, then financial aid is not,nor should it be a financial issue.Anecdotally,a prep school senior applied to two hockey schools;one NESCAC one ECACE.Accepted to both,once accepted to the NESCAC,he knew that they would FULLY fund his need(parents were not wealthy),at the ECACE school they could give him an unofficial approximate of aid but told him that it probably would not be all he needed as they gap everyone.
The NESCAC coach told him that he needed an answer in two days or he would recruit another player for his "spot".
after two days the student accepted the offer to Connecticut College.
So the advantage to me in this case is pretty clear
Exactly, you proved my point. With an excellent student, NESCAC is going to have an advantage.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Oh I get it now, but I think that the D 11 schools are not likely to play ball on removing their said advantage(s) that really aren't because if they ever do want to negotiate for something they want or need they will still have something on the table to bargain with, even if it it doesn't really exist.:confused: Kinda like when the Fool in King Lear pointed out that Lear, in giving away his kingdom to his daughters prematurely (while he was still breathing), in essence handed a stick to his daughters and pulled down his own breeches.:rolleyes: It is all very Shakespearean when you think about it ... . Family is family after all.:D So methinks that D 11 should keep their hypothetical advantage to avoid having their asses handed to them at a later date. Plus it is the one thing that seems to annoy people which has to count for something. Right now it is a flee they cannot scratch.:mad: I just don't get if it is an effect or an affect. Perhaps neither, perhaps both. Regardless it doesn't make sense to give potential if nonexistent bargaining chips away fer nuttin'. Ask King Lear how it felt :( to be placed in the stocks as a near octogenarian. D 11 should avoid the stocks at all costs or at least pretend that they aren't already in them. Elementary my dear Watson, elementary.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Exactly, you proved my point. With an excellent student, NESCAC is going to have an advantage.
you are right on.But in this instance, the student in question was a good,not excellent student, and a very good hockey player.Advantage NESCAC
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

So this topic has been brought up on the DI boards. Their main concern is that, with the elimination of a playup, creating a DII/III NC would mean any DII schools (or canadian schools that can only join DII) adding hockey would have to join the II/III league. THis would effectively prohibit any expansion in the already compact (by DI standards) DI league.

A suggestion on the DI boards was made that intrigues me. What if they created a DI/II NC to mirror that of women's hockey, and the NE-10 played as a 0-scholarship cost-containment league? To be tournament eligible, they only need 20 games against teams in that division, which could be satisfied by their conference schedule, they could play the rest entirely or partly against DIII opponents. To be AQ eligible, they only need 6 teams. They already have that, and there is a possibility that some schools may wish to join such a cost-containment league (Union has been suggested, due to their non-scholarship status anyway). The recruiting issues at these schools would be partially satisfied by the possibility, if not likelihood, of an AQ to the DI tournament. Yes, they will probably get thrashed in the tournament for a while... but look at RIT and Bemidji :)

What do you guys think of that suggestion? I don't think it will happen, but it could be a viable solution to the DII conundrum.
 
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Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

So this topic has been brought up on the DI boards. They're main concern is that, with the elimination of a playup, creating a DII/III NC would mean any DII schools (or canadian schools that can only join DII) adding hockey would have to join the II/III league. THis would effectively prohibit any expansion in the already compact (by DI standards) DI league.

A suggestion on the DI boards was made that intrigues me. What if they created a DI/II NC to mirror that of women's hockey, and the NE-10 played as a 0-scholarship cost-containment league? To be tournament eligible, they only need 20 games against teams in that division, which could be satisfied by their conference schedule, they could play the rest entirely or partly against DIII opponents. To be AQ eligible, they only need 6 teams. They already have that, and there is a possibility that some schools may wish to join such a cost-containment league (Union has been suggested, due to their non-scholarship status anyway). The recruiting issues at these schools would be partially satisfied by the possibility, if not likelihood, of an AQ to the DI tournament. Yes, they will probably get thrashed in the tournament for a while... but look at RIT and Bemidji :)

What do you guys think of that suggestion? I don't think it will happen, but it could be a viable solution to the DII conundrum.

As I said over there - do you really want to see Stonehill or Franklin Pierce play against DI competition? That would be ugly^5.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

As I said over there - do you really want to see Stonehill or Franklin Pierce play against DI competition? That would be ugly^5.

If their only DI/II competition is St. Anselm's, St. Mike's, Assumption, and SNHU that's fine with me :p

When was the last time Stonehill or Franklin Pierce won the NE10 Championship (and therefore would get the AQ)?

Seriously... I've never really paid attention to the NE10 conference championships :o
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

If their only DI/II competition is St. Anselm's, St. Mike's, Assumption, and SNHU that's fine with me :p

When was the last time Stonehill or Franklin Pierce won the NE10 Championship (and therefore would get the AQ)?

Seriously... I've never really paid attention to the NE10 conference championships :o

You beg the question: What kind of preparation for a D 1 playoff is winning a NE 10 Championship? The obvious answer is none at all. The D 2 schools play primarily D 3 schools and of course other D 2 schools. Ergo the only championship their schedule warrants is an AQ to the D 3 championship.

I don't think that recruitment problems in D 2 stem from lack of a playoff opportunity in a D1 championship where the team would be hopelessly outclassed, embarrassed, hammered, beaten into the ground, pulverized to smithereans (sic?), if the desire for a championship AQ is an issue it is not having an AQ to their appropriate competition, the D 3 championship.

Who would want to sign up for a D 2 school, win the NE 10 and then get hammered by teams in the D 1 who can give up to 100% athletic scholarships when the poor prep school kids on your team get nothing and therefor are what they are, D 2 calibre players.

It strikes me that the suggestion on the D1 board is a thinly veiled attempt to get rid of the D 2 school's potential to recruit decent players if they never give away their right to allocate their funds in the way they see fit. Anybody who has ever negotiated knows that this is an applea and oranges situation and that you never give away your advantage, perceived or otherwise, just to be in a position of disadvantage.

Bottom line is D2 schools would get hammered by D 1 schools and particularly if they gave up their autonomy over how to allocate funds in their athletic departments. What about the D 3 schools who have better records than the D 2 school that wins the Ne 10 championship? Wouldn't they have some concerns that an inferior team by record gets to go to a D 1 championship. Makes little sense. The only way a D 2 school should go is if they win a D 2 versus D 3 championship straight up and then they go against D 1. In this case the team would at least be proven to be of sufficient caliber to make it worthwhile.

This is all a mute point because while D 1 might not mind hammering some poor defenseless D 2 team they sure are not going to put it on the line against a team like Norwich. If Norwich beat Boston in a championship, then D3 would be better than D 1. This would prove that we don't live in a geo centric universe revolving around D1 and then all heck would break loose.

The difference is that D1 schools can afford to buy better players, in general, because they can give scholarships, but that does not mean that they have an absolute advantage. Norwich could probably whup some of them, right up to the middle of the pack, and they know it. No way that D 1 would ever put it on the line. Neither should D 2 bother putting it on the line in a D1 tournament where the outcome is not even in doubt.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

So this topic has been brought up on the DI boards. Their main concern is that, with the elimination of a playup, creating a DII/III NC would mean any DII schools (or canadian schools that can only join DII) adding hockey would have to join the II/III league. THis would effectively prohibit any expansion in the already compact (by DI standards) DI league.

A suggestion on the DI boards was made that intrigues me. What if they created a DI/II NC to mirror that of women's hockey, and the NE-10 played as a 0-scholarship cost-containment league? To be tournament eligible, they only need 20 games against teams in that division, which could be satisfied by their conference schedule, they could play the rest entirely or partly against DIII opponents. To be AQ eligible, they only need 6 teams. They already have that, and there is a possibility that some schools may wish to join such a cost-containment league (Union has been suggested, due to their non-scholarship status anyway). The recruiting issues at these schools would be partially satisfied by the possibility, if not likelihood, of an AQ to the DI tournament. Yes, they will probably get thrashed in the tournament for a while... but look at RIT and Bemidji :)

What do you guys think of that suggestion? I don't think it will happen, but it could be a viable solution to the DII conundrum.
Cards

I think it would go the other way. If there is a D-I/II NCC, then the NE10 could offer scholarships, play 20 games in the NE10 and then play AHA, UML, Merrimack, and some ECAC schools to fill out the remainder of the schedule. Since these schools are all in the same championship pot, the games would count for the HEA, AHA, and ECAC schools towards the PWR.

In the end, the NE10 champ would get a bid to the NCC just like the WCHA and HEA. And, if you think the BCS has problems with Boise State, Utah, and TCU, just wait until some WCHA school gets bubbled out of the tournament by the NE10 champ.

No way in heck would I, as a D-III school, play a NE10 school under those circumstances.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Cards

I think it would go the other way. If there is a D-I/II NCC, then the NE10 could offer scholarships, play 20 games in the NE10 and then play AHA, UML, Merrimack, and some ECAC schools to fill out the remainder of the schedule. Since these schools are all in the same championship pot, the games would count for the HEA, AHA, and ECAC schools towards the PWR.

In the end, the NE10 champ would get a bid to the NCC just like the WCHA and HEA. And, if you think the BCS has problems with Boise State, Utah, and TCU, just wait until some WCHA school gets bubbled out of the tournament by the NE10 champ.

No way in heck would I, as a D-III school, play a NE10 school under those circumstances.

Correct, in theory. But the schools have made it clear that they don't want to play DI. None of these schools offer scholarships in anything but basketball. They don't want to offer hockey scholarships. That's why they are in their current situation, unlike the 4 NE10 members currently playing up.

That's why I think that an NCC NE10 would be in the form of a zero-scholarship cost-containment league. With no scholarships, I'm sure they could find DIII opponents willing to play them for OOC games to fill out the schedule (I'm also sure they could find DI/II opponents for the reasons you stated).
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Talk about the NE 10 schools as a group moving to DI in any way,shape or form is an interesting thought but wholly unlikely,given cost,commitment etc.
I can tell you this,if the NCAA would require a entire move up of the athletic program the answer would be drop hockey.
i guess the question to ask is that if you were a college president ot AD,given the obstacles today and in the future of fielding a NCAA hockey team, would you continue the program?Does limbo = extinction?time will tell
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Talk about the NE 10 schools as a group moving to DI in any way,shape or form is an interesting thought but wholly unlikely,given cost,commitment etc.
I can tell you this,if the NCAA would require a entire move up of the athletic program the answer would be drop hockey.
i guess the question to ask is that if you were a college president ot AD,given the obstacles today and in the future of fielding a NCAA hockey team, would you continue the program?Does limbo = extinction?time will tell
As long as there is not a National Hockey Championship for D-II's the D-II's can play up using the one sport exception. Once the legislation passes, D-III's have to stay in D-III as D-III offers a NC.

IF there is a D-II/III NCC, then any D-II not currently offering hockey would have to play in D-II/III if they do start a program.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Correct, in theory. But the schools have made it clear that they don't want to play DI. None of these schools offer scholarships in anything but basketball. They don't want to offer hockey scholarships. That's why they are in their current situation, unlike the 4 NE10 members currently playing up.

That's why I think that an NCC NE10 would be in the form of a zero-scholarship cost-containment league. With no scholarships, I'm sure they could find DIII opponents willing to play them for OOC games to fill out the schedule (I'm also sure they could find DI/II opponents for the reasons you stated).

Basketball is NOT the only sport that gets ATHLETIC $$ from the NE-10. There is $$ for soccer, baseball, football, etc... Not full scholarships but $$ based on athletic ability.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Basketball is NOT the only sport that gets ATHLETIC $$ from the NE-10. There is $$ for soccer, baseball, football, etc... Not full scholarships but $$ based on athletic ability.

I meant for most of the 6 schools in question :rolleyes:
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I meant for most of the 6 schools in question :rolleyes:
You are right on.St.A's and ST.Mike's offer full athletics scholarship for their mens annd womens basketball teams.Assumption and Stonehill offer some scholarships for additional sports.FPC and SNHU offer the most scholarships of the six.ALL OF THE SCHOOLS IN QUESTION,DO NOT OFFER HOCKEY ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS.
The major obstacle in a compromise is, the almost unanimous, opposition of the MCHA,MIAC and NHAC leagues and teams to the inclusion of the DII teams. This opposition is based on the NCAA tournament format,limiting the number of teams in the tournament.If the NCAA would expand the tourmanent qualification criteria to allow for 16 teams? then it would appear the opposition should go away and we would be able to have a DII/DIII show.
The western schools believe the current format unfairly favors the east and more teams would only worsen the situation.(I don't really understand the tournament issue)
For the record, the NE10 league,representing the DII's has done absolutely nothing in this regard,with all the heavy lifting being done by the DIII's championship committee(Bruce Delventhal).
i have heard their will be another survey of the DIII hockey schools this year in a "final" attempt to reach a compromise.We'll see
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

The major obstacle in a compromise is, the almost unanimous, opposition of the MCHA,MIAC and NHAC leagues and teams to the inclusion of the DII teams. This opposition is based on the NCAA tournament format,limiting the number of teams in the tournament.If the NCAA would expand the tourmanent qualification criteria to allow for 16 teams? then it would appear the opposition should go away and we would be able to have a DII/DIII show.
The western schools believe the current format unfairly favors the east and more teams would only worsen the situation.(I don't really understand the tournament issue)

This logic is just plain screwy. If the NE10 schools are allowed to play as DIII, the size of the tournament will increase from 11 to 12. The four orphans could go back to the ECAC NE, and the number of Pool C slots would increase by 1. How would this hurt in any way the (mid)West?
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I wonder what the long term fall out will be with Penn State coming into the D1 ranks and the probable formation of the BTHC. IF some Michigan based D-II playups out west decide that the cost of doing business with the big boys is too much then the D-II/III west outlook may change.
 
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