WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

[pepperbrooks]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

First things first, the 'holier than thou' attitude at St. Norbert and the NCHA is getting tiresome. Lets get something straight, St. Norbert is a private school built on athletics and a virtually unlimited amount of money to allocate toward that chosen aspect of the college. Your academic prowess suffers because of your athletic excellence. Same can be said for a school like Adrian. Fact is, the MCHA before Adrian was like New Orleans after Katrina. Many of the teams couldnt even compete with club hockey teams. So all those 'W's Norbert racked up against the shell of the MCHA years ago dont have any bearing on the league's status currently. Norbert has beaten almost everybody and anybody, including in the NCHA the past 5 years and I can recall several times in the past few years that MCHA schools like Lawrence, Marian, and MSOE have beaten or tied upper-echelon NCHA schools. I promise you this, it won't be long before MCHA schools are beating them and the WIAC regularly if they choose to go that route. Keep living in the past and the future will blow right by.

 

[altazo]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Academics do not take a back seat to athletics at SNC. Never have, never will.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

First things first, the 'holier than thou' attitude at St. Norbert and the NCHA is getting tiresome. Lets get something straight, St. Norbert is a private school built on athletics and a virtually unlimited amount of money to allocate toward that chosen aspect of the college. Your academic prowess suffers because of your athletic excellence. Same can be said for a school like Adrian. Fact is, the MCHA before Adrian was like New Orleans after Katrina. Many of the teams couldnt even compete with club hockey teams. So all those 'W's Norbert racked up against the shell of the MCHA years ago dont have any bearing on the league's status currently. Norbert has beaten almost everybody and anybody, including in the NCHA the past 5 years and I can recall several times in the past few years that MCHA schools like Lawrence, Marian, and MSOE have beaten or tied upper-echelon NCHA schools. I promise you this, it won't be long before MCHA schools are beating them and the WIAC regularly if they choose to go that route. Keep living in the past and the future will blow right by.

I get real tired of this attitude (mostly found in the West Region) that somehow private schools have this huge advantage over public schools in athletics. Having taught at a private school for years, I can tell you that this just is not so. There are real problems in recruiting students-athletes for DIII schools. The financial aid restrictions mean that the cost of attending a private school for an athlete is no different from the cost of attendance for any other student - that's the point of DIII, but the reality is that except for the most well funded schools, it costs more (often lots more) to attend a private school than a state school. I don't see that being a state school has put too much of a crimp in the national level of success that we find for Plattsburgh and Oswego - sure they don't have as many national titles as Middlebury, and I've never heard it claimed that Middlebury's academics have been endangered by their athletic success. Castleton fans don't claim that Norwich has an unfair advantage over them in recruiting. The whole idea of the DIII regulations is to put everyone on an equal footing.

 

[altazo]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The last I'll write on the subject -

The NCHA is so strong not because the top teams are so good, but because the bottom teams are. That's what seperates it from most conferences, with the obvious exception of the ECAC-W.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The last I'll write on the subject -

The NCHA is so strong not because the top teams are so good, but because the bottom teams are. That's what seperates it from most conferences, with the obvious exception of the ECAC-W.

I took a look at the NCHA winning percentages over the last 5 years.
One team clearly superior (no pun intended) .......a core cluster of 4 teams .....and some 2-3 unspectacular teams on the bottom.

 

[Sir Nubs]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

First things first, the 'holier than thou' attitude at St. Norbert and the NCHA is getting tiresome. Lets get something straight, St. Norbert is a private school built on athletics and a virtually unlimited amount of money to allocate toward that chosen aspect of the college. Your academic prowess suffers because of your athletic excellence. Same can be said for a school like Adrian. Fact is, the MCHA before Adrian was like New Orleans after Katrina. Many of the teams couldnt even compete with club hockey teams. So all those 'W's Norbert racked up against the shell of the MCHA years ago dont have any bearing on the league's status currently. Norbert has beaten almost everybody and anybody, including in the NCHA the past 5 years and I can recall several times in the past few years that MCHA schools like Lawrence, Marian, and MSOE have beaten or tied upper-echelon NCHA schools. I promise you this, it won't be long before MCHA schools are beating them and the WIAC regularly if they choose to go that route. Keep living in the past and the future will blow right by.

Virtually unlimited amount of money? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one. I suppose that's why St. Norbert has part-time head coaches in sports like volleyball and baseball. The baseball and softball facility is a cow pasture. Football/soccer/track played in subpar facilities until two years ago. They sure throw a lot of money into athletics. As far as academics are concerned, St. Norbert's prowess in that area has far from suffered. The average ACT score of this year's freshmen class was 25, which was the highest in the history of the school. Keep looking for reasons though as to why SNC has a top program.

As far as SNC and CSS or any other private schools joining the WIAC, I just don't see it. The problem is the WIAC is so haughty they think they're just going to get schools to flock there. How they can think that when those schools left to begin with is beyond me. With budget cuts in the WIAC those programs are going backwards. The future of Division III hockey is in private institutions, which, by the way, don't exist to service the WIAC.

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Academics do not take a back seat to athletics at SNC. Never have, never will.

You are correct! According to Forbes', August 2011 list of the ' America's Best Colleges', SNC is ranked #84 nationally.

The top 12 Academic DIII colleges with hockey programs are: #1 Williams, #4 Amherst, #20 Colby, #38 Bowdoin, #39 Tufts, #40 Middlebury, #62 Connecticut College, #63 Lawrence, #71 Hamilton, #78 St. Olaf, #80 Trinity, and #84 St. Norbert.

The D3 West conferences (NCHA, MCHA, & MIAC) have 3 of the top 12.

 

[altazo]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I took a look at the NCHA winning percentages over the last 5 years.
One team clearly superior (no pun intended) .......a core cluster of 4 teams .....and some 2-3 unspectacular teams on the bottom.

Is one of those teams with the unspectacular winning % the same team that won Adrian's Thanksgiving tourney last season?

That's exactly my point.

 

[AVFC]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The last I'll write on the subject -

The NCHA is so strong not because the top teams are so good, but because the bottom teams are. That's what seperates it from most conferences, with the obvious exception of the ECAC-W.

This is very true. The MCHA has some really nice programs in it, but the bottom of the two conferences do not currently compare. As an MCHA supporter who would love to have CSS and SNC in the conference, I suspect that in the end, both will join the WIAC. I cannot, however, see any current MCHA members joining the WIAC even if presented with an opportunity to do so.

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I took a look at the NCHA winning percentages over the last 5 years.
One team clearly superior (no pun intended) .......a core cluster of 4 teams .....and some 2-3 unspectacular teams on the bottom.

For the record as a fan of one of the bottom 2-3 unspectacular teams:

34W - 13L - 1T VS NON NCHA/WIAC Opponenets during the five year time frame you refer too. 12-1-1 in the last two years. Not too bad for the "unspectacular". Now how does this compare to the bottom 2-3 unspectacular teams in other conferences (west or east)? Well I don't know if anyone else has that kind of free time .

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

For the record as a fan of one of the bottom 2-3 unspectacular teams:

34W - 13L - 1T VS NON NCHA/WIAC Opponenets during the five year time frame you refer too. 12-1-1 in the last two years. Not too bad for the "unspectacular". Now how does this compare to the bottom 2-3 unspectacular teams in other conferences (west or east)? Well I don't know if anyone else has that kind of free time .

With or without LVC

 

[Raidineer]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Whoa. I didn't say MSOE either would or wouldn't be eager to join WIAC. I just don't think they'll get invited. At the time of the original announcement, WIAC indicated that all remaining NCHA teams had been invited to join as associate members. I think the most reasonable outcome is for all of those teams to accept, leaving WIAC with the same membership as NCHA currently has. MCHA would remain unchanged in that case.

Why is that the most reasonable outcome, and why does it seem the WIAC has some belief that it can do whatever it wants and everyone else is just going to go along? You say "I just don't think they'll get invited" about MSOE yet also said earlier that under a certain scenario the WIAC would "just invite Marian and Finlandia" and they would "most certainly accept." That makes it sound pretty simple so does the WIAC think it has the power to just hand pick who it wants and that they will just go along? I don't know who might or might not go along with something like that the whole thing seems really pretentious from the outside.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

This is very true. The MCHA has some really nice programs in it, but the bottom of the two conferences do not currently compare. As an MCHA supporter who would love to have CSS and SNC in the conference, I suspect that in the end, both will join the WIAC. .

I don't see SNC or CSC joining the WIAC if there isn't an AQ in the picture.
It only makes sense that they look elsewhere.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

I don't see SNC or CSC joining the WIAC if there isn't an AQ in the picture.
It only makes sense that they look elsewhere.

I agree but something that is getting lost in all this is that the Pool B bid will be reinstated should the WIAC not get an automatic bid right off the bat. Granted its not the same as an AQ but only competing against 12 teams for the Pool B bid is better than the Pool C slugfest sometimes.

It'd be interesting to see comparisons between SNC and the top ECAC West schools in that scenario.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I agree but something that is getting lost in all this is that the Pool B bid will be reinstated should the WIAC not get an automatic bid right off the bat. Granted its not the same as an AQ but only competing against 12 teams for the Pool B bid is better than the Pool C slugfest sometimes.

It'd be interesting to see comparisons between SNC and the top ECAC West schools in that scenario.

The WIAC teams created this mess without a whole lot of consideration for SNC or CSS.
Now SNC & CSS are supposed to follow along and play "roulette"` with POOL B/C for the benefit of WIAC ??

The MCHA becomes THE obvious alternative for one or both of these orphans.

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The WIAC teams created this mess without a whole lot of consideration for SNC or CSS.
Now SNC & CSS are supposed to follow along and play "roulette"` with POOL B/C for the benefit of WIAC ??

The MCHA becomes THE obvious alternative for one or both of these orphans.

Ahh, this sounds like the temptation to cut off one's nose to spite their face.

though I agree

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Why is that the most reasonable outcome, and why does it seem the WIAC has some belief that it can do whatever it wants and everyone else is just going to go along? You say "I just don't think they'll get invited" about MSOE yet also said earlier that under a certain scenario the WIAC would "just invite Marian and Finlandia" and they would "most certainly accept." That makes it sound pretty simple so does the WIAC think it has the power to just hand pick who it wants and that they will just go along? I don't know who might or might not go along with something like that the whole thing seems really pretentious from the outside.

Those are my opinions you are commenting on, not the WIAC's. Throughout this thread, I've explained my opinions thoroughly enough that I shouldn't need to explain them here.

You seem to think that if WIAC invites any MCHA teams, that MSOE should be entitled to join also, or instead of those schools. Doesn't work that way in the real world. To WIAC, the only two MCHA schools more geographically undesirable than MSOE are Adrian and Lake Forest.

If you want to continue this discussion, please present a reasonable argument.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Ahh, this sounds like the temptation to cut off one's nose to spite their face.

though I agree

......I liken it more to putting the cheese in a trap !

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The WIAC teams created this mess without a whole lot of consideration for SNC or CSS.
Now SNC & CSS are supposed to follow along and play "roulette"` with POOL B/C for the benefit of WIAC ??

The MCHA becomes THE obvious alternative for one or both of these orphans.

The UW schools did what they felt they had to do for their own survival, and then did the best they could for the other NCHA teams by inviting them to join WIAC as associates, with the hope that the NCAA would allow the AQ's to follow. I doubt SNC and CSS will do anything "for the benefit of WIAC." They will do what is in their own best interest - as they should.

If the NCAA does allow the AQ's to transfer from NCHA to WIAC, then I think it is clearly in everyone's best interest for all NCHA teams to join WIAC.

If the NCAA does not allow the AQ's to transfer from NCHA to WIAC, then SNC to MCHA becomes much more likely, especially if no more than one current MCHA team moves to WIAC. (If two or more MCHA teams left for the WIAC, MCHA would have fewer than seven continuing members, and could lose its AQ.)

I see almost no chance that CSS would choose to join MCHA instead of WIAC, if only because it would dramatically increase their travel. They would be replacing relatively short trips to the UW schools with much longer trips to Adrian, Lake Forest, MSOE, and Concordia. How could they justify doing that when they have an invitation from WIAC? Furthermore, if CSS and SNC both joined MCHA, I believe at least two current MCHA members would be invited to join WIAC, which could result in loss of AQ, as mentioned above. CSS to the MCHA is probably the one thing that would most surprise me from this whole "mess," as you call it.

It is all very complicated, and no one is even discussing the effect the women's side will have on these decisions.

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

......I see almost no chance that CSS would choose to join MCHA instead of WIAC, if only because it would dramatically increase their travel. They would be replacing relatively short trips to the UW schools with much longer trips to Adrian, Lake Forest, MSOE, and Concordia. How could they justify doing that when they have an invitation from WIAC? ....

Two reasons- 1) Hell has no fury as a hockey team scorned, and 2) CSS has never indicated, that I'm aware of, that travel was a deal maker or breaker for conference affiliation.

P.S.- Dennis are you aware that Finlandia is not just a stones throw away from the WIACs ?