WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Savings come on the Women's side.. Everyone on this thread keeps focussing on this from the Men's NCHA perspective, but everything that's been done has been to cut costs because of the Women's side. Hockey's not a cheap sport for any university to pay for, add in the fact that attendance is terrible for Women's hockey (fact not opinion) so any chance to help pay for the women's side is non existent and something had to give. It sucks because on the men's side the NCHA is the best conference in the country with an incredible legacy. Unfortunately the Women's side grew so much and is so spread out that the cost to support it is too much. Hopefully the Knights and the Saints join the WIAC and the league will continue to reign supreme and both schools can also save $$$ on the Women's side too.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Unless they've been paying membership dues to the NCHA in addition to the WIAC dues they are already paying?

Yes, this move would alleviate the state schools of some duplicative administrative expenses. And, Blugold Hockey is exactly right about reducing the travel costs to Illinois and Michigan for the women's side.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Yes, this move would alleviate the state schools of some duplicative administrative expenses. And, Blugold Hockey is exactly right about reducing the travel costs to Illinois and Michigan for the women's side.

There is no reason that they couldn't have withdrawn from the Women's side of the NCHA, and left the men's NCHA as it was. There are plenty of instances in which men's and women's teams play in different conferences even when it is possible for both to play in the same conference - look at Manhattanville, for example - Men play in the ECAC West, Women play in the ECAC East, even though there is a Women's ECAC West. If there are perceived problems with the NCHA women's conference for the WIAC schools, by all means - do something else, but the men's conference didn't even need to be part of the discussion.

 

[Blugold Hockey]

There is no reason that they couldn't have withdrawn from the Women's side of the NCHA, and left the men's NCHA as it was. There are plenty of instances in which men's and women's teams play in different conferences even when it is possible for both to play in the same conference - look at Manhattanville, for example - Men play in the ECAC West, Women play in the ECAC East, even though there is a Women's ECAC West. If there are perceived problems with the NCHA women's conference for the WIAC schools, by all means - do something else, but the men's conference didn't even need to be part of the discussion.

Insert budget issues and a way for bean counters who have no idea or vested interest in DIII Hockey here and remove common sense and logic. The whole thing was handled so badly that it completely supports why people have issues with anything that's government run. Just because the powers that be work for institutions of higher learning doesn't mean they practice what they try to teach and supposedly stand for. At the end of the day they run a business and they believe they made just another business decision. I really hope when the dust settles the Men's side stays the same.

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

There is no reason that they couldn't have withdrawn from the Women's side of the NCHA, and left the men's NCHA as it was. There are plenty of instances in which men's and women's teams play in different conferences even when it is possible for both to play in the same conference - look at Manhattanville, for example - Men play in the ECAC West, Women play in the ECAC East, even though there is a Women's ECAC West. If there are perceived problems with the NCHA women's conference for the WIAC schools, by all means - do something else, but the men's conference didn't even need to be part of the discussion.

Gee thanks Prof! I understand that Easterners believe that us folk out West are slow , but we do have 5 examples of that scenario right here in our own backyard. Adrian, Lake Forest, Concordia (WI), Marian, and Finlandia all have men's teams in the MCHA and women's teams in the NCHA.

BTW, you're spot on regarding the men's side of this issue.

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Gee thanks Prof! I understand that Easterners believe that us folk out in the Mid-West are slow , but we do have 5 examples of that scenario right here in our own backyard. Adrian, Lake Forest, Concordia (WI), Marian, and Finlandia all have men's teams in the MCHA and women's teams in the NCHA.

BTW, you're spot on regarding the men's side of this issue.

Fixed your post - you have to remember who you are talking to

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Gee thanks Prof! I understand that Easterners believe that us folk out West are slow , but we do have 5 examples of that scenario right here in our own backyard. Adrian, Lake Forest, Concordia (WI), Marian, and Finlandia all have men's teams in the MCHA and women's teams in the NCHA.

BTW, you're spot on regarding the men's side of this issue.

The difference with your examples is that there is not a Women's MCHA, so the Manhattanville example is designed specifically to counter the "yeah but there's no Women's MCHA", that would come up in response to my comment. There are several schools in the ECAC NE for men's hockey, but in the ECAC East for men's hockey. (My point was "when it is possible for both teams to play in the same conference.") (I know you West guys aren't that slow, but you did miss my "fine print.")

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Fixed your post - you have to remember who you are talking to

Thank you, I stand corrected.

 

[uppuckhead]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

would make the MCHA better no question

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Well, I am not saying it makes sense to pull out on the men's side due to women's travel expenses but that was a specific reason cited by the WIAC commissioner. And, once leaving on the women's side I am guessing it made even less sense to keep paying admin costs for the men.

I just think looking for some grand plan beyond the basics may be giving the architects of this too much credit.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Well, I am not saying it makes sense to pull out on the men's side due to women's travel expenses but that was a specific reason cited by the WIAC commissioner. And, once leaving on the women's side I am guessing it made even less sense to keep paying admin costs for the men.

I just think looking for some grand plan beyond the basics may be giving the architects of this too much credit.

I would think that there would still be administrative costs for the league that are associated with sponsoring the sport - those costs have to be met somehow, and I assume they would be passed on to the schools sponsoring that sport. I don't see an awful lot saved in that regard - wouldn't those cost be the same whether the league is the NCHA or the WIAC?

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I would think that there would still be administrative costs for the league that are associated with sponsoring the sport - those costs have to be met somehow, and I assume they would be passed on to the schools sponsoring that sport. I don't see an awful lot saved in that regard - wouldn't those cost be the same whether the league is the NCHA or the WIAC?

No. WIAC is an all-sports conference with commissioner, publicity director, administrative staff, offices, website, etc. already in place. UW schools will keep the money they are currently paying to NCHA.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

No. WIAC is an all-sports conference with commissioner, publicity director, administrative staff, offices, website, etc. already in place. UW schools will keep the money they are currently paying to NCHA.

WIAC will have added administrative costs that go with adding a new sport - you need a coordinator of officials, you will require more time from publicity, administrative staff, etc to support the increased overhead related to hockey. This will create a necessity of adding staff to cover new the responsibilities - it won't be a no cost change for WIAC. The added costs will have to be shared by the schools which sponsor hockey or else shared among all conference members. It's not a no cost change. Those expenses are the reasons that there are costs associated with the NCHA. There is no free lunch.

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

WIAC will have added administrative costs that go with adding a new sport - you need a coordinator of officials, you will require more time from publicity, administrative staff, etc to support the increased overhead related to hockey. This will create a necessity of adding staff to cover new the responsibilities - it won't be a no cost change for WIAC. The added costs will have to be shared by the schools which sponsor hockey or else shared among all conference members. It's not a no cost change. Those expenses are the reasons that there are costs associated with the NCHA. There is no free lunch.

Wasn't suggesting that those things are free, just that they are already in place, so paying the NCHA to duplicate is a waste of money. Only new cost should be for the coordinator of officials, which could be paid for in part, if not entirely, by fees paid to WIAC by associate hockey members.

http://www.wiacsports.com/index.aspx?tab=icehockey&path=mhockey

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Wasn't suggesting that those things are free, just that they are already in place, so paying the NCHA to duplicate is a waste of money. Only new cost should be for the coordinator of officials, which could be paid for in part, if not entirely, by fees paid to WIAC by associate hockey members.

http://www.wiacsports.com/index.aspx?tab=icehockey&path=mhockey

Not if there aren't any ... there will be time spent on hockey that could/would require either more full time staff or more hours spent by part time staff. Somebody's time is going to be spent writing press releases, maintaining the hockey pages on the conference web site, etc. This time is not going to come out of thin air. If staff is already fully employed doing this for other sports it means new people - or more time spent by existing staff - that means money. This is not going to be a free ride - in any case, the big cost is going to be the coordination of officiating probably will mean at least a half time position - The associate members (if there are any) for hockey are not going to pay the entire freight for new costs on their own. If they are asked to do so, they won't even consider joining the WIAC.

 

[4and20]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The "complete" NCHA, is for all intents and purposes the 2 non-WIAC schools, who IMO, could careless and want to send the WIAC on their way and/or at a minimum are under the duress of appearing pity/solely self-serving should they object to the "majority" and at best want to move forward, with sooner beating later.

From a business perspective, I can find many justifiable reasons for the WIAC to take the actions they have. Their primary stakeholders have little to benefit from belonging to the NCHA, in the end, I am certain the “cost/benefit” analysis fueled the decision. Note that the “cost/benefit” analysis includes the “rewards” of participation. Since DIII hockey’s monetary costs far exceed the revenue, additional, non-financial factors are also weighed. These factors are those primarily affecting the quality of the educational experience as a whole to the student body as well as the image and recruiting benefits that offing the sport bring. These factors must justify the offering of the sport. The continual success of SNC as NCHA Champion does not have a net positive impact on the non-financial benefits of offering the sport, for example promoting the WIAC as a whole can help over come some of the particular shortcomings. Moving the WIAC schools to a WIAC umbrella is quite likely to lead to a net benefit to the WIAC schools even if their financial cost remain unchanged.

It is unfortunate (stinks) that a proud conference with a strong history/legacy is likely to end, but if it means preserving teams that otherwise might be folded, in the end it is likely for the best.

Preserving WIAC teams is fine, but what about the schools that might fold programs (i.e. womens programs at Adrian or Finlandia) how is that a net positive benefit for the sport of D3 ice hockey? And remeber, Adrian can not join the ECAC west, the conference does not include schools in Michigan in it's by-laws.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Preserving WIAC teams is fine, but what about the schools that might fold programs (i.e. womens programs at Adrian or Finlandia) how is that a net positive benefit for the sport of D3 ice hockey? And remeber, Adrian can not join the ECAC west, the conference does not include schools in Michigan in it's by-laws.

Adrian will not be folding it's varsity women's hockey program anytime soon.

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Not if there aren't any ... there will be time spent on hockey that could/would require either more full time staff or more hours spent by part time staff. Somebody's time is going to be spent writing press releases, maintaining the hockey pages on the conference web site, etc. This time is not going to come out of thin air. If staff is already fully employed doing this for other sports it means new people - or more time spent by existing staff - that means money. This is not going to be a free ride - in any case, the big cost is going to be the coordination of officiating probably will mean at least a half time position - The associate members (if there are any) for hockey are not going to pay the entire freight for new costs on their own. If they are asked to do so, they won't even consider joining the WIAC.

Take a closer look at the link I sent you. Those are WIAC press releases announcing things such as the all-WIAC men's ice hockey team (not the all-NCHA team) on the WIAC hockey page of their web site. So as I said, everything they need appears to be already in place, except for the coordinator of hockey officials.

As for the associate member fees, until I hear otherwise I'm just going to assume the WIAC will charge the associate members about the same amount they are currently paying to the NCHA, so it should be a wash.

Perhaps the question everyone ought to be asking is: Why didn't the WIAC make this move years ago?

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Perhaps the question everyone ought to be asking is: Why didn't the WIAC make this move years ago?

Because they USED to be able to beat SNC and CSS..................

 

[Raidineer]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Take a closer look at the link I sent you. Those are WIAC press releases announcing things such as the all-WIAC men's ice hockey team (not the all-NCHA team) on the WIAC hockey page of their web site. So as I said, everything they need appears to be already in place, except for the coordinator of hockey officials.

As for the associate member fees, until I hear otherwise I'm just going to assume the WIAC will charge the associate members about the same amount they are currently paying to the NCHA, so it should be a wash.

Perhaps the question everyone ought to be asking is: Why didn't the WIAC make this move years ago?

Earlier you mentioned that you thought Marian and Finlandia would jump at the chance to join the WIAC. Do you think there's any chance MSOE could also?