WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

[Sir Nubs]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Then choose not to, and find another conference that will hand you their AQ. I think that will be harder than you think.

Do you stop and think about what you say before you write it? This situation is similar to if for some reason the SEC had a bunch of schools leave and Alabama wasn't one of them. How many conferences do you think would be beating at the Tide's door even though it might hurt them competitively in football? The answer is all of them. Granted that situation would likely never happen, but no one thought this would happen either. The bottom line is the WIAC hockey schools have been sick of getting pounded for 15 years. It's not a secret, everyone knows. Most would even grudgingly admit the impressive jobs Tim Coghlin and Mark Wick have done. You can get all of the horses in you want into your program, but you still have to get them better once you get them. Both of those coaches are excellent at getting their players to improve. They don't have to worry about key guys going out and getting DUIs during the Peters Cup Playoffs, usually, either. So examine your own programs and what you're doing before you just take your ball and go home. This line of thinking is exactly what's wrong with America today, such as the Walker recall. I'm not a Walker guy, but I'm against the principle of the recall. But I digress.

If the MCHA were to accept SNC and CSS, all parties stand to gain. SNC and CSS find a new home. The profile of the MCHA gets raised. I also think that the MCHA certainly would stand in line to get a Pool C berth every now and again too, which again benefits the entire membership of the league. You have two groups (MCHA and WIAC) here. One obviously doesn't mind the competition. The other hides behind budget concerns when it's obviously an issue of competitiveness.

 

[goalcoach70]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I can't buy the argument that you don't want a team in your league becasue they are too good! If my team wasn't good enough to have a chance to win the tournament, why bother with going. I think that Adrian, Marian, MSOE, will continue to get better - when they are good enough to unseat SNC, they will be good enough to make a run at the NCAA tournament. You always want to play against the best to get better. I see the MCHA becoming the top Western league if these teams are added and that would be a plus to all the teams in recruiting and also in getting an at-large NCAA bid.

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I ask the same question I asked earlier in this thread. Why in the world would the MCHA open their arms to a team they have not been able to beat? What difference does it make how strong your conference is if you don't have a chance to win it.

I'd sarcastically respond..." Why not, with the exception of this year's rarity (MSOE), the MCHA already has that situation with Adrian."

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

If the MCHA were to accept SNC and CSS, all parties stand to gain. SNC and CSS find a new home. The profile of the MCHA gets raised. I also think that the MCHA certainly would stand in line to get a Pool C berth every now and again too, which again benefits the entire membership of the league. You have two groups (MCHA and WIAC) here. One obviously doesn't mind the competition. The other hides behind budget concerns when it's obviously an issue of competitiveness.

Logistically CSS to the MCHA makes very little sense, and from what I hear the MIAC would be a better fit.

But let's look closely at your take on this Nubbsy.

SNC....... gain a home, and a direct route to the tournament.....and a Pool C shot if they slip up.
vs.
"The MCHA conference gets a better profile".


Really ???? So if there is a USCHO Poll or a thread is started on the subject ....the MCHA will have the prestige of a higher profile ?
What will this better profile do for the MCHA teams in terms of wins and losses ?
What's wrong with the MCHA's profile ?

If a better profile is the big hook in this sale.......I'm not biting.........but be sure to give us a call if you wind up with no AQ opportunity, and are looking for ways to improve your SOS. Chasing Pool C's can be so much fun.

 

[Sir Nubs]

Logistically CSS to the MCHA makes very little sense, and from what I hear the MIAC would be a better fit.

But let's look closely at your take on this Nubbsy.

SNC....... gain a home, and a direct route to the tournament.....and a Pool C shot if they slip up.
vs.
"The MCHA conference gets a better profile".


Really ???? So if there is a USCHO Poll or a thread is started on the subject ....the MCHA will have the prestige of a higher profile ?
What will this better profile do for the MCHA teams in terms of wins and losses ?
What's wrong with the MCHA's profile ?

If a better profile is the big hook in this sale.......I'm not biting.........but be sure to give us a call if you wind up with no AQ opportunity, and are looking for ways to improve your SOS. Chasing Pool C's can be so much fun.

Since you feel so threatened, maybe you should go join the WIAC.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Since you feel so threatened, maybe you should go join the WIAC.

You may find this hard to believe Nubbsie, .....but I like the MCHA's profile better than the WIAC.

 

[Sir Nubs]

You may find this hard to believe Nubbsie, .....but I like the MCHA's profile better than the WIAC.

Who doesn't?

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

but be sure to give us a call if you wind up with no AQ opportunity, and are looking for ways to improve your SOS. Chasing Pool C's can be so much fun.

They could also qualify for a pool B.

 

[goalcoach70]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I thought CSS, Northland, and Finlandia made for a decent northern group of team in the MCHA.....

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I respectfully disagree. With Aiken now coaching Marian, accompanied by his strong ties with both the ADs and coaches at SNC and Lawrence, I doubt that Marian would "certainly accept" the WIAC's invitation. The draw and oppurtunity to stay with the other Fox Valley teams is a natural rivalry triad. The MCHA is the better move for Marian.

As for Finlandia... Why would a small University in Michigan (under 1000 students), "certainly accept" an invite to a conference composed of larger state schools, from Wisconsin, with established and successful hockey programs ? Specifically, when Finlandia hasn't placed in the upper half of the MCHA in years. The Lions don't want to be the sacrificial lambs of the WIAC. They'll stay put and grow their program.

I believe the WIACs have painted themselves into a corner. They've put SNC and CSS in the drivers seat for now.

Finlandia is already an associate member of WIAC in men's soccer. They are an independent school in the upper peninsula of Michigan, where there are no D3 all-sports conferences. They need to be associate members of other conferences in as many sports as possible just to ensure they will have some home games. The WIAC has some leverage there, so yes, Finlandia would almost certainly accept their invitation for hockey . . . unless you think the Midwest Conference will invite Finlandia to become an associate member in other sports.

You have a slightly better case regarding Marian, based on geography, but that geography did not prevent them from applying to move their men's hockey team from MCHA to NCHA. Until we have solid information to the contrary, it seems reasonable to assume that they remain interested in leaving the MCHA. Aiken has no authority to make this type of decision - as a new hire he might be lucky if they asked his opinion. The people who hired him would make the decision - presumably the same people who previously tried to leave the MCHA.

I disagree that the WIAC has "painted themselves into a corner." Since the original decision was announced, statements by their commissioner indicate that they were fully aware of the risks, and even that they might lose their AQ. Announcing their decision 30+ months before it was expected to take effect clearly indicated that they were taking a long-term view, and are willing to work through any shorter-term difficulties.

It will be interesting to see what SNC and CSS decide to do. If they decide to join the the WIAC, as I expect, then obviously the Marian/Finlandia issue is moot.

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Finlandia is already an associate member of WIAC in men's soccer. They are an independent school in the upper peninsula of Michigan, where there are no D3 all-sports conferences. They need to be associate members of other conferences in as many sports as possible just to ensure they will have some home games. The WIAC has some leverage there, so yes, Finlandia would almost certainly accept their invitation for hockey . . . unless you think the Midwest Conference will invite Finlandia to become an associate member in other sports.

You have a slightly better case regarding Marian, based on geography, but that geography did not prevent them from applying to move their men's hockey team from MCHA to NCHA. Until we have solid information to the contrary, it seems reasonable to assume that they remain interested in leaving the MCHA. Aiken has no authority to make this type of decision - as a new hire he might be lucky if they asked his opinion. The people who hired him would make the decision - presumably the same people who previously tried to leave the MCHA.

I disagree that the WIAC has "painted themselves into a corner." Since the original decision was announced, statements by their commissioner indicate that they were fully aware of the risks, and even that they might lose their AQ. Announcing their decision 30+ months before it was expected to take effect clearly indicated that they were taking a long-term view, and are willing to work through any shorter-term difficulties.

It will be interesting to see what SNC and CSS decide to do. If they decide to join the the WIAC, as I expect, then obviously the Marian/Finlandia issue is moot.

Let's say your crystal ball is right and Marian and Finlandia leave the MCHA for the WIAC. The end result would be a big win for the MCHA when/if SNC and CSS join the MCHA. That tradeoff would surely make the MCHA a stronger hockey conference than the WIAC.

Also, remember things have changed regarding Marian, the MCHA, and the NCHA since the attempt to join the NCHA. You're no longer the NCHA, you're now only 5 Wisconsin state schools. The MCHA has become a better conference since then, and perhaps Marian didn't get over the snub. What if Aiken does have more say so? Afterall, Marian had to offer him some say in the program for him to leave SNC as an Associate Head Coach. The perceived problem at Marian was their commitment to hockey, not Wise's coaching.

On the bright side, you could land that 6th team, Finlandia. I think the rest of Western D3 hockey could survive that move.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Since the original decision was announced, statements by their commissioner indicate that they were fully aware of the risks, and even that they might lose their AQ. Announcing their decision 30+ months before it was expected to take effect clearly indicated that they were taking a long-term view, and are willing to work through any shorter-term difficulties.

It isn't 30 months, is it? And IIRC, the original announcement was hurried because it was leaked, it had been planned to be revealed at a later date. This doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

It isn't 30 months, is it? And IIRC, the original announcement was hurried because it was leaked, it had been planned to be revealed at a later date. This doesn't pass the smell test.

With a little research you could easily verify that what I wrote is correct.

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Let's say your crystal ball is right and Marian and Finlandia leave the MCHA for the WIAC. The end result would be a big win for the MCHA when/if SNC and CSS join the MCHA. That tradeoff would surely make the MCHA a stronger hockey conference than the WIAC.

Also, remember things have changed regarding Marian, the MCHA, and the NCHA since the attempt to join the NCHA. You're no longer the NCHA, you're now only 5 Wisconsin state schools. The MCHA has become a better conference since then, and perhaps Marian didn't get over the snub. What if Aiken does have more say so? Afterall, Marian had to offer him some say in the program for him to leave SNC as an Associate Head Coach. The perceived problem at Marian was their commitment to hockey, not Wise's coaching.

On the bright side, you could land that 6th team, Finlandia. I think the rest of Western D3 hockey could survive that move.

No crystal ball, I'm just trying to make some sense out of this. My expectation remains CSS and SNC in the WIAC for hockey; the Marian/Finlandia stuff was in response to your question about WIAC options.

But I'm trying to understand your point of view, so I went back to your earlier posts in this thread, and it seems that at least one of your goals would be to keep teams that are in the same all-sports conference together in the same hockey conference. I have no idea whether that is an important consideration to, say, SNC, but if you take that to its logical conclusion while also taking geography into consideration, you might get the following conferences:

NCHA/MCHA
St Norbert (Midwest Conference)
Lawrence (Midwest Conference)
Lake Forest (Midwest Conference)
Marian (Northern Athletics Conference)
Concordia (Northern Athletics Conference)
Milwaukee School of Engineering (Northern Athletics Conference)
Adrian (MIAA)

WIAC
St Scholastica (Upper Midwest)
Northland (Upper Midwest)
Finlandia (independent)
5 UW schools (WIAC)

As you had suggested, this leaves open the possibility that the Midwest Conference (or the Northern Athletics Conference) could one day do exactly what the WIAC is doing - sponsor hockey and invite the remaining schools as associate members. Then there would be no more western, hockey-only conferences in D1.

 

[4and20]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I think everyone is not seeing the point of this whole WIAC exercise. I believe the purpose is to get Adrian and Finlandia out on the Women's side to save travel expense dollars. This creates three women's conferences: MIAC 10 schools, NCHA 7 remaining schools, & WIAC 4 schools. The bonus is getting SNC out on the Men's side and the SNC Women before they get any better. On the SNC Men's side they don't want to go to the MCHA where they are 55-0-2 lifetime against current MCHA schools. On the Women's side the NCHA still has seven teams and the AQ, the WIAC has four teams and maybe I guess the Pool B bid maybe. My best crystal ball tells me SSC & SNC Men go with the WIAC, the MCHA Men remain the same, the NCHA only has a seven member womens conference, and wait for it, the WIAC women's conference has four schools. Boy, I guess that was a smart idea!

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I think everyone is not seeing the point of this whole WIAC exercise. I believe the purpose is to get Adrian and Finlandia out on the Women's side to save travel expense dollars. This creates three women's conferences: MIAC 10 schools, NCHA 7 remaining schools, & WIAC 4 schools. The bonus is getting SNC out on the Men's side and the SNC Women before they get any better. On the SNC Men's side they don't want to go to the MCHA where they are 55-0-2 lifetime against current MCHA schools. On the Women's side the NCHA still has seven teams and the AQ, the WIAC has four teams and maybe I guess the Pool B bid maybe. My best crystal ball tells me SSC & SNC Men go with the WIAC, the MCHA Men remain the same, the NCHA only has a seven member womens conference, and wait for it, the WIAC women's conference has four schools. Boy, I guess that was a smart idea!

There will be no Pool B bid on the women's side. There are not enough teams in non-automatic bid conferences to garner one. There would have to be 7 teams playing in conferences without an automatic bid to have a Pool B. However, if for some reason the WIAC remains a five-team league and loses the autobid on the men's side...it would in fact bring back the Pool B bid with six ECAC West teams competing for it along with the five WIAC schools.

 

[thomaa]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Different question on this subject.

Any thoughts on when SNC and CSS might make their decision?

 

[pete99race]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Different question on this subject.

Any thoughts on when SNC and CSS might make their decision?

I would think, we will have a decision by early summer.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Regarding the idea that WIAC schools could somehow make it harder for SNC to recruit by flying under the WIAC banner than the NCHA banner: bulls**.

There are 5 WIAC teams in the NCHA and two others. That's a majority, my friends. The state schools can pass any rule they want right now regarding recruiting or anything else. To me, that argument holds no water.

Budgets are tight. This move reduces admin expenses and womens travel expenses. That's what it is all about.

I expect SNC and CSS to end up under the WIAC flag

If they don't, yeah the state schools may find other teams. But still will have to deal with SNC come NCAAs.

 

[BetterInLakePlacid]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

There are 5 WIAC teams in the NCHA and two others. That's a majority, my friends. The state schools can pass any rule they want right now regarding recruiting or anything else. To me, that argument holds no water.

Forget about the women? There are 12 schools in the NCHA: seven private and five WIAC, which makes the WIAC the minority.